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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Where did the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture Come From???

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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster,
Yeah your right I was only re quoting what you said and commenting on that qoute.Yours staff

 2017/5/7 10:48Profile









 Re: Staff

No problem, bro.😊

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 12:07
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Interesting. I read Matt 24 and only see The Blood bought Christian community here through verse 13 perhaps vs 14 and than I see a shift in the events and focus as I understand Daniels 70th week starts, the church is no longer on earth, but like the family of Noah they are in an Arch(figuratively speaking).Heaven

1Cor 15 has nothing really to do with Matt24 and Daniel s 70th week, it was simply addressing an issue that the Corinthian believers were having pertaining the dead in Christ and the last day but not the end times as pertains to week 70 and the events happening on earth or in Heaven directly.

I also am not sure what you mean by "secret" rapture because the whole world will see that event happen.


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D.Miller

 2017/5/7 14:54Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi bro Blaine,

I am certainly no expert on this and don't really care whether there are two or one resurrection, but in response to your post and scripture copied below, these clearly refer to the resurrection of the dead not those who remain alive.


...Truly truly, I say to you an hour is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God, and those who hear will live....John 5:25

... Do not marvel at this for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment...John 5:28-29


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William

 2017/5/7 15:00Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

What of the blood bought Christian community spoken of in Rev 7:14?

These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {Rev 7:14)

This seems a very clear description on a blood bought Christian community to be gathered during a final tribulation Christ described in Matt 24:21. Darby was the very first in the history of the church to propose that blood washed tribulation saints would not be part of the blood washed Christian church.

If I For 15:51-52 does not describe the rapture and translation of dead and living saints at the last day then what does it describe? The last day, resurrection day, is at the end of Daniel's 70th week which in every way possible is part of the end time.


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David Winter

 2017/5/7 15:27Profile









 Re: William

John 6:40

...For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day....

William by implication. The one who has faith in Jesus will to be raised up from the dead on the last day. And by implication, the one who is alive in Jesus will be with Him on the last day.

Key phrase is "last day". By implication the second return of Jesus.

My thoughts bro.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 17:45









 Re: From Matthew and 2 Thessalonians

Matthew 24:29-31

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Unless I am misreading my Bible. It appears the verses above from Matthew and Thessalonians are describing the same event.

Consider that, in Matthew, 24, Jesus is going to send his angels to gather his elect. This at the end of the tribulation.

Then Paul appears to expound on the same event in Thessalonians when he speaks of our gathering together in Him.

Key words are "gathering" and "gather".

Both of the above passages appear to be describing an event that come at the end of tribulation. The event, of course, is the second return of Jesus Christ.

Simply my observations.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 18:15









 Re: Another question...

Another question would be what is the "day of the Lord" that Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1. Paul also uses the phrase the "day in the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians, 5:2.

Is the "day of the Lord" the same as "the last day" Jesus speaks of in John 6:40.

Just pondering these questions from the word of God.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 18:22
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I respect your thoughts on these passages brothers and I do not want to be contentious so I respectfully submit the following on the passages: Rev 7 is a scene in heaven and there will be those who die for the sake of Christ from the preaching of the 144000 who are martyred during the great tribulation. And 1Cor 15:51-52 does not set the catching away in the time frame at the end of Daniels 70th week, as a matter of fact if you just use that chapter alone(which is unwise) that event can take place at any time. You guys do know that there will be natural born Jews saved during the great tribulation, right? Can anyone show me the gentile church or born again converts to Jesus Christ on Earth after chapter 5 of Revelation? As I stated before there are things John records that are happening on earth and at the same time in heaven, so again look at Daniel s prophesy, the term "THY people" is used, that refers to the natural born Israelite. Our job in this present age is to watch and pray for we known not when.......


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D.Miller

 2017/5/7 19:14Profile









 Re: Bro Dohzman

///Can anyone show me the gentile church or born again converts to Jesus Christ on Earth after chapter 5 of Revelation?///

Brother I believe Rev. 7:9-10 describe both the Jewish and Gentile church.

...After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”...

Here we see a multitude from around the world who were are gathered around the throne, with palm branches, shouting salvation to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. This is the end time harvest. This is the bride of Christ.

In Rev. 7:13-14 we read,

...Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from? I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...

Those from every nation. And all tribes and people and tongues are those who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. By implication, this is the bride of Christ. This is the church that Jesus has baught with his own blood.

In Rev. 21:9 we see,

... Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the lamb."...

Brother, for sure, the above verse is describing the church. For this is what our brother Paul reasons out of the book of Ephesians. For the church is the bride of Christ.

I hope these verses might answer the question you posed. I do believe that the remnant church, as composed of Jew and gentile, are mentioned in a book of Revelation after chapter 5.

Again merely my thoughts as gleamed from scripture.

Respectfully posted.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 20:08





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