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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Daniels 70th week

In order to comprehend the catching away of the "church" or bride of Christ and place it in a time line you have to clarify where you stand in regards to Daniel's 70th week and than look at the events of Revelation. At a certain point the church is no longer on earth and the prophesy in Daniel containing the 70th week was for "Thy people" which is clearly an indication that he is talking about natural born Israelites as opposed to engrafted gentile believers in Christ. I need to look again but I believe the Church of Jesus Christ is not mentioned on earth again after ch4 of Revelation, how ever we see pictures of events happening in Heaven as well as events happening at the same time on earth after ch 4 specifically ch 5 and forward. Than you have to look and make a difference between Tribulation and The Great Tribulation. Presently more christians are being persecuted and martyred now than at any time in world history...so only in America does certain misnomers really apply when it comes to the catching away of the Bride of Christ. The catching away was an expected event to such an extant that the church in Thessalonica closely associated with the exhortation to the church of Smyrna had some clarification from Paul. The time line was not really expounded on but some of the ongoing conditions were, those conditions however have existed from that time til now. The actual event of the catching away if you parse the words from the greek are really pretty straight forward in that when this event happens all those in Christ will be gone forcibly removed from earth and suddenly in Heaven with Christ.



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D.Miller

 2017/5/6 19:02Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2007


 Re: Where did the doctrine the Pretrib Rapture Come From???




I don't think that any here are under the assumption that there's no tribulation that a christian must endure. Each christian suffers in one degree or another.

The question hinges upon ones interpretation of Matthew 24 and Daniel's 70th week. It is the "Great Tribulation" referenced in those verses that the debate is over.

If this is not the case, please explain.

So, it is of utmost importance to understand what the Spirit is teaching in the context of those verses.

Acts 2:36

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

 2017/5/6 19:04Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1418


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster
On this qoute one thing that I find with the post tribulation view is that they alot of the times dont differentiate between
"Tribulation" and "The Great Tribulation"
So jut because we have tribulation in this life and we go through it doesnt mean that we automatically assume that we go through the specific period of time called the "The Great Tribulation".This specific time has also a specific purpose or purposes and it also has like a football match two halves.
(Probably one way of looking at this is God does not save us "from' the tribulation. But He saves us "through" the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt are a good example of God saving His people through the tribulation.)
Yours Staff

 2017/5/6 20:38Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1418


 Re:

Hi Lisa,
One thing that Barry Smith always said and its the only thing I can remember that really hit a chord with me was this.
Jesus gave two examples and in both specific examples Judgement only happened after specific events.The events were "until the day Noah entered the Ark" and "until the day Lot left Sodom"
So I guess what I cant except as an arguement for Post Tribulation view is that their is going to be any kind of normality in the great tribulation.A post tribulation believer has to believe that the Noah and Lot examples cannot be about the "Great Tribulation" to be anyway honest or consistant.
Why?Because they were eating and drinking and building and marrying and planting and sowing.Jesus goes out of his way to show that it was a time of plenty.What Jesus was saying was everything was normal (including sin )right up til the time of departure for Noah and Lot then immediate Judgement.
If post tribulation view is correct then the Noah and Lot examples are about something else.Ive seen arguements that somehow the tribulation isnt worldwide and that of course they will be eating drinking how could they live etc but I dont think that explanation can marry up with the picture Jesus is painting.
Does this mean Post Tribulation view is wrong?No not nessacarily but it does mean that the Noah Lot examples are not about the Great Tribulaton.
Ps Judgement only happened after Noah was safe and Lot was safe and both were not harmed at all but did endure some turmoil or persecution before leaving.These examples cannot be an example of going through the tribulation and being harmed or killed or martyred or even starved.
Yours staff

 2017/5/6 21:07Profile









 Re: Staff

///Probably one way of looking at this is God does not save us "from' the tribulation. But He saves us "through" the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt are a good example of God saving His people through the tribulation.)
Yours Staff///

Duuhh. Though I just said that in an earlier post.😊

Bearmaster

 2017/5/6 22:45
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 657
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

"Oh look, hundred pound hailstones. Can you pass me a sandwich? I worked a whole day for that, by the way. Also, can you get me a glass of water? No, not the bloody water. There is no other water? Oh well. I sure hope the Russians don't drop a nuke on us, like they did to our neighbours in the U.S. Yeah I've gotta go to work tomorrow; just a regular old workday. By the way, my sister's wedding is on Tuesday."


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Nigel Holland

 2017/5/7 7:05Profile









 Re: From Jesus and Paul

Brethren in speaking of the pretrib rapture then the question must be asked, are there 2 resurrections? Is there a resurrection that will be secret when Christ appears to take his bride home before the tribulation? And then, will there be a another resurrection after the tribulation? At least in my understanding of pre trip theology and what I was taught in the early days of my walk with Christ, this is what I understood. That those who expouse the pretrib view are teaching two resurrection of Christ. Or I should, say, two appearings of Christ. But is this what the scriptures teach?

As I was listening to John this morning, these verses came to mind.

...Truly truly, I say to you an hour is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God, and those who hear will live....John 5:25

... Do not marvel at this for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment...John 5:28-29

Paul summarizes what Jesus is saying in Acts 24:15.

...having a hope in God which these men cherish themselves, that there will certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked...

I'm sure there are plenty of other verses that teach that there is one resurrection. A resurrection in which the righteous and the wicked will be judged. Respectfully, I do not see where Jesus and Paul taught that there would be 2 resurrections or 2 appearings of Christ.

I invite any dialogue or comment on the verses above. I am simply going by the simplicity of scripture. It seems that the teaching of a pretrib rapture or 2 appearing of Christ did not figure into the first century church.

It is interesting that those who hold to a pre trib rapture must consult complicated charts. They look pretty in their color codes. But I do not think that this is New Testament truth.

As usual, these are my thoughts gleaned from listening to the New Testament and the Holy Spirit.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 8:27









 Re: Also From John


John 6:40

...For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day....

Again, brethern in the verse above Jesus is clearly teaching there will be one resurrection. He speaks of those who have faith in him will be raised up on the last day.

This begs the question, what is the last day? That in itself would be another thread. But I believe by implication. Jesus is speaking of His return to earth. The last day being when He returns to wrap up redemptive history.

If in the above verse, Jesus is speaking of the one who has faith in Him. Would He not have said that He would raise him up when he comes to take His church home? That he would raise Him up before the tribulation.

Again, I believe the thrust of the verse above is His final return. When Jesus returns to gather His bride and to judge the wicked and the dead.

Again, these are my thoughts and observations from the simplicity of scripture.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/7 8:51
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2016


 Re: A trumpet after the tribulation of those days

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound...(I Cor 15:51-52)

and He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)

This trumpet Jesus speaks of is the last trumpet. It is the very last trumpet spoken of therefore can be coupled with I Cor 15:51-52 which speaks of the last trumpet as being the time when saints are changed and glorified. All ambiguity is gone. Matt 24:29 sets the context as AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. The last trumpet hardly could have occurred seven years earlier if there is yet another trumpet to sound after the tribulation of those days. The church is raptured and changed at Matt 24:31 - at the last trumpet after the tribulation of those days.


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David Winter

 2017/5/7 9:50Profile









 Re: David

Excellent observation, brother. How on earth can one look at the scriptures you quoted and come up with a pre trib rapture is beyond me.

I think the words you quoted out of Matthew 24 is "after the tribulation" vs. 29 is when the Son of God will return and with power and glory vs 30.

Matthew 24 is probably the clearest teaching about the return of Christ. There is no mention of a secret rapture of the church.

 2017/5/7 10:24





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