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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Where did the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture Come From???

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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

The more I study Revelation the better I understand the people's lack of understanding of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem and his subsequent ministry and ongoing 'rule' among people.

Blaine, how do you understand the millennium reign? Its beginning and end?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/5/5 11:33Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 655
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

An interesting article rebutting Joe Schimmel's "left Behind Or Led Astray" can be read here: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Rebuttal-statement-Left-Behind-or-Led-Astray.pdf

Part of the article debunks the notion that Darby got the idea of the pre trib rapture from Margaret Macdonald. In fact, Darby said Macdonald's utterances were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it seems that her utterances supported a post tribulation view.


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Nigel Holland

 2017/5/5 11:48Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

The dilemma whether to believe either pre or post trib seems to hinge on the weaknesses of the non-preferred view. For decades, I held to one view because I read for all those years the biblical arguments of those who spent most of their time refuting the opposing view. But, I always struggled to swallow the underlying arguments since they stood less on their own bottom than they did on the heap of what they thought they had destroyed in the opposing view.

In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.

The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.

In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.


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Tim

 2017/5/5 13:34Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2011


 Re: Beliefs accompanying the pre-trib view

Many that have studied the pre-trib view believe that many beliefs that have grown up around and accompany the pre-trib view are as much in need of further discussion as the pre-trib view itself.

1) Everyone saved during the tribulation will never be part of the church since the church will have been taken and vanished. Tribulation saints will be saved through faith and the blood of Christ but nonetheless will never be part of the church.

2) Believers who have come to faith during the tribulation will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This raises a legitimate issue if one can be born again without being indwelt by the Spirit.

3) Many pre-trib advocates propose Israel will be placed back under a system of law and will be required to be saved in this "Old Testament manner" during the tribulation since the age of grace will have closed.

4) Many parts of the NT will not be relevant for tribulation believers since major parts of the NT are for the church only.

5) The Day of the Lord will he seven years long instead of occurring at the end of the tribulation.

Many pre-trib believers are not even aware of these views that have grown up around and accompany their view.




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David Winter

 2017/5/5 15:54Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 655
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Hi docs.

1. I don't hold to the view that Tribulation saints are not part of the church. Even Old Testament believers are part of the church and were born again the same way we are today and will be during the Tribulation.

2. Everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ and is born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit; again, even in the Old Testament it was so.

3 and 4. What are they supposed to believe then? Even in the Old Testament times, law could not save you, so it can't during the Tribulation.

5. The Day of the Lord is just that; it's a one time event where God takes the saints to be with Him, not a seven year period.


Also, I hear people say that you have to infer the pre tribulation rapture in scripture, but you also have to do that with the doctrine of the Trinity. Many cults will deny the Trinity because that word is not in scripture, you have to carefully study the scriptures and ask God for illumination.


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Nigel Holland

 2017/5/5 17:36Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1418


 Re:

Hi Dolfan,
Your Qoute>
In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.

The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.

In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.


Hi Dolfan I think your comments are fair about Darby .If they are consistant with the bible good and if not poor.Many pre tribbers also have a deep concern for those going to go through the tribulation not because of Christians going through this time but because they have a love for the lost and the unsaved and want to warn them of the time ahead.
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber which is really a form of pre trib and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff

 2017/5/5 19:38Profile
StirItUp
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Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

...Jesus told His disciples that in this world we would have tribulation, some greater than others.
Paul said that the tribulation he goes through on earth doesn't begin to compare with the glory to be revealed when Christ returns for His people.

When writing to the Thessalonians, Paul keeps emphasizing that the Day of the Lord is to be a source of comfort for Christians, a culmination of the good things promised by Jesus; that that Day had not yet come (in their time), that it would come as a thief in the night, that the man of sin (lawlessness) would be revealed. It would be a time of great delusion in the world, however not for true believers.The delusion is for those who found no place in their hearts to believe the truth and be saved. Paul then again reminds them that they were chosen by God for salvation through sanctification by the Holy Spirit and faith in the truth

...in summary, it doesn't really matter what tribulation we go through, small or great, the truth is, we are going THROUGH and coming out on the other side into the glory that Christ has promised to all who believe and continue to believe in Him.

Blessings,


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William

 2017/5/6 3:19Profile









 Re:

Probably one way of looking at this is God does not save us "from' the tribulation. But He saves us "through" the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt are a good example of God saving His people through the tribulation.

I have heard those who defend the pretrib rapture, saying that certainly God would not want His people to go through His wrath. And then they quote the verse that says God is not destined us for wrath but for salvation in Jesus Christ.

But the distinction needs to be made between the judgments of God upon the earth and persecution. I believe God will save His remnant church during the judgments that are mentioned in Revelation. Just as he saved his Old Testament, people during the judgments he brought against Egypt during the time of Moses.

However, the church or I should say the remnant bride is not spared from persecution. Persecution has been an ongoing reality of the believing church since the time of Christ. That is why the doctrine of a pre trib rapture is not taught in places like North Korea. For those believers would say we are in tribulation.

As I go through the New Testament, it seems the message is that God will save his people "through" tribulation. But He will not save them "from" tribulation.

I want to thank all who are contributing on this thread. And the spirit exhibited here.

I apologize, I cannot respond to your post individually. But your comments are are causing me to think through this issue. And I believe this issye is something we will need to think through grow closer to the time of His return.

As usual simply my thoughts.

Bro Blaine

 2017/5/6 7:15
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
by staff
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber WHICH IS REALLY A FORM OF PRE TRIB (emphasis Lisa's) and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff


I can only speak for myself but when I came to my own conclusion that the church could very well be going through the tribulation, at the time it was too much for my mind to handle, I didn't lovingly embrace post-tribulation!

I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures. But in the mean time of not being able to base jump right into post-tribulation, I found mid-trib and settled there for about 6 mos to a year while still studying the Scriptures. But my personal point is that mid-trib was my exodus and first step toward post-trib while the dust settled in my mind and heart.

Edit: Well, after rereading this, your statement could very well be true!! Mid-trib can be a form a pre-trib because I no longer believed the pre-trib was correct but was afraid to leave the belief I had held for years.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2017/5/6 8:36Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:
I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures.


Lisa that is really honest post.

I really do not find anything useful in the post or pre trib arguments. I think I am post trib because I see all the scriptures pointing to that. I have no trouble believing it. I have already faced enough persecution for my faith. The feeling of being hated by your loved ones for your faith is far bitter than any physical suffering. I think all this are again great debate in west where prosperity is making it difficult for them to accept any persecution.

Many Pre Trib believers, though they acknowledge that there is no scriptural backing for their belief, they still hold on to it because it is difficult for them to believe otherwise.


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Sreeram

 2017/5/6 8:58Profile





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