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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Heaven Bound, or Hell Sent?

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ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Narrow road or narrow mind, you decide

Quote:

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:

Any more opinions on this matter? (Pope/Thersea)



I agree with you, must be born-again, as to the state of those two individuals, who knows what happened on their death beds. No matter how they lived there lives in apparent apostasy, who knows what happens in those final momments before a person slips into eternity.

Brave man in my book to make a judgement call on this issue. Did Hitler pass into eternity without making peace with his saviour? Who knows? There is only one to whom all judgement has been given.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/16 14:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The wind blows where it wishes

Quote:
I like his logic on the matter. I like his concept of the condition of accountability and not age of accountability.

I think this is quite a widely held view among 'non-Calvinists' too although he seems to think it is of special merit for the Calvinist theology.

To my way of thinking this is just plain accountability. God holds us accountable for what we 'know we are doing'. The prayer of the Lord Jesus is interesting in this light “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.” (Luke 23:34, KJVS) The word for 'know' here is to 'perceive'; we might translate it 'they don't 'see' what they are doing'. This seems to indicate that this prayer is based upon their 'knowing' or 'not knowing'.

This links with another recent thread and Acts 17 where God is said to 'overlook ignorance' until the word of God penetrates that context. (Acts 17:30). God's protest to Jonah is another link in this pattern; “Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?”
(Jonah 4:10-11, KJVS)

I don't have any doubt but that we are judged not on the basis of what we do but on the basis of we know about what we do.

What does intrigue me with McArthur's position is the implication that every aborted baby and every severe learning-disabled person and every person who dies before the 'condition of accountability' is thereby deemed 'one of the elect'. Really?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/6/16 14:39Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Different levels?

Quote:

philologos wrote:
What does intrigue me with McArthur's position is the implication that every aborted baby and every severe learning-disabled person and every person who dies before the 'condition of accountability' is thereby deemed 'one of the elect'. Really?



If they are not one of the elect, then what are they?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/16 14:48Profile
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 Re: Different levels?

Sorry if this is too much off topic but I have started a 26 part series on hell on the SI blog and am also posting them in the "devotions" section of the forum. I just posted the second part:
http://www.xanga.com/sermonindex


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/6/16 14:56Profile









 Re: Is this where you are coming from?

Quote:


Can I presume that you would toss folk, who in a state of clinical depression commit suicide, into hell?



Yes. Just because your 'down and out' doesn't give you any reason to murder yourself. Key word MURDER.

And SermonIndex really no1 is off topic. "Heaven Bound, Hell Sent'...that ranges alot. Even though i did start this thread about Pope and Thearsea.(sp)

Now, about 'children' and heaven or anyone for that matter. If you don't come to the Knowledge of Christ before you die. Your going to hell. There MIGHT be an exsemption, but its something i haven't looked into. Like if the 'head of the house' is saved, the whole family could be saved. This assumtion is not because of something written in Acts about 'you and your household will be saved' but something about Paul wrote..and its been a while since i read what Paul wrote..lol.

There sometimes is 'wiggle room'. But i say on this matter , 'assume the worst'. Because, we all say 'grace,grace'. But if someone doesn't receive grace, THEY ARE GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE. And we aren't to judge that.

Also, election is those who God KNEW were going to accept Him. It's not like 'your elect, and you dont choose Jesus'. Cause thats forceful and not a Christ attribute. All those 'elect' are those who END UP accepting Christ. And those 'sinners' (those who are going to hell) are just receiving what we (elected people) deserve, but didn't because of Grace.

i hope that last paragraph wasn't tooo 'trippy'. :-P

 2005/6/16 15:35
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Different levels?

Quote:
If they are not one of the elect, then what are they?


Hi ZekeO
My understanding of election has more to do with service than salvation. Israel was an elect nation. The Calvinists regard the 'elect' as a fixed number of individuals chosed for salvation before time. Although one brother in these forums has suggested I be made 'an honorary Calvinist' I have declined the honour. :-D

I think having adopted the general Calvinist position MacArthur is then forced to take this line but to me it makes it the whole pattern of election even stranger. My problem is with the idea of having to be 'one of the elect' to guarantee salvation.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/6/16 15:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Greg writes...

Quote:
Sorry if this is too much off topic...


Do feel free to use this website as though it were your own. 8-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/6/16 15:50Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Getting in over my head

Quote:

philologos wrote:
My problem is with the idea of having to be 'one of the elect' to guarantee salvation.


When you first asked the question, I had no clue what you were talking about. Fortunatley I am learning the lingo of christian theology, I know that these two guys had issues in the past and their adherents have been at it ever since. :-?

When I read elect in the article, my immediate thought was not in the context of 'predestination election' but in the election of born sinners into the kingdom of God, not based upon any preordainded planning on Gods part, but on his grace extended to sinful creatures incapable of choosing right from wrong.

Do you get the difference of what I am saying, not that the individual soul was elected, but the soul in that condition was. I know it seems like I'm saying the same thing, but thats how the deck of cards has fallen. Make sense?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/6/16 16:59Profile









 Re:

Doesn't everyone who becomes a Christian discover afterewards that they were 'predestined' to salvation and this is something to do with God's heart that none should perish - more, that those who do not believe deselect themselves from blessing, than God has chosen not to bless them?

Quote:
My understanding of election has more to do with service than salvation.



Very interesting. I'll dwell on this a little.

 2005/6/16 18:01









 Re:

My understanding about election is pretty much with the last two posts.

Can't all TRUE Christians look back on their lives and SEE the Hand of God upon it? [u]It's a choice, and those who make the choice are those who are pre-destained. [/u]And i truly wouldn't try to expand that any more take it for what it is.

 2005/6/20 2:00





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