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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1269
Dothan, Alabama

 An Ends or a Means

It seems there are several perspectives and recent threads have given reason to revisit this subject as it would provide a basis of understanding differing views on other topics...

The salvation that God offers mankind thru Christs atoning sacrifice, is it an ends in and of itself or a means to an ends?


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Fletcher

 2017/4/8 17:18Profile
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1043


 Re: An Ends or a Means

JFW,
I don't quite know / can't quite grasp what you are asking,..?

"The salvation that God offers mankind thru Christs atoning sacrifice,"

And this is what I can't quite understand,..

"Is it an ends in and of itself,or a means to an end?"

If I said, it was an ends in and of itself,.. Then I would believe 'OSAS'
Wouldn't I ?.....( only if one,like the one on the cross,that died along side of Jesus,then,I believe,it would be an ends in and of itself.)

Rom.3:23-25
Paul says,"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins 'THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God; To declare,I say,AT THIS TIME His righteousness: that he might be just,and justifier of him which believe in Jesus.

And If I said, A means to an end,..then I would have to believe,that the hand of the Lord is not shorten,..and that He wants to Save / be our Salvation,...
Not only initially,but always,....He wants,and is ready to save us in every situation.

Please forgive if I understood you wrong,...please explain.

----------------
elizabeth

 2017/4/8 21:59Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1269
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Dear Sister,

You have not misunderstood and are quite eloquent in expressing your faith:)

As to your answer: yes I suppose one could say that if it is an end that would lead to an OSAS doctrine tho is that the only position that could come from this view? It would seem to my mind there would be other possibilities... likewise if salvation is itself a means while the position you expressed would certainly be true,... wouldn't there be more?

So why is God saving us,...
For loves sake ?
For glory ?
For joy ?

One could say yes to each of these yet God already has all of this without us,... so why did He do it?
What is the ultimate purpose in His heart?
What does God desire....?




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Fletcher

 2017/4/9 0:48Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: An Ends or a Means

Salvation, reconciliation, peace (the doing away of the enmity), anointing, power, sonship, intimacy, ministry. I guess I could continue the list. These words just came to mind right away. The incarnation, the atoning sacrifice, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire are all God's means of bringing about the list above. How wonderful the knowledge of forgiveness of sins. How marvelous the hope that I will one day spend eternity in the presence of God. This hope, this knowledge, is amazing, powerful, wonderful, and plays a great part in our walk with God. But if we act as though this is all there is to the atonement we miss out on most of what God has and wants for us.

I guess it is a little bit like taking a job and having as our only focus the acceptance letter and the retirement plan. In doing so we totally miss out on the career itself. We think the acceptance letter and the retirement plan are what the job is all about, when these things are only our entrance into the career and our exit from it.


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Travis

 2017/4/9 9:08Profile
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1043


 Re: why ?

Bro.JFW,
First of all,..thank you for your kindness.
Among others here, I want to say that you are such a blessing on this forum,and I am quite sure Greg and many others here,could say the same.
because of your well thought-out soberness and kind speech.
...this is not meant for flattery at all,... But a true and kind word, that we all need sometimes.

Next -
"Why is God saving us ?"
"For loves sake ?"
"For glory?"
"For joy?"

I would say too,.. All of those things evolves out of A RELATIONSHIP / FELLOWSHIP / COMMUNION, that He had with Adam,that was lost then.

Now !
That relationship / fellowship, communion, can be restored ,that was lost in Adams,through the saving blood of His Son, Jesus,...the sacrifice.

Blessings,
-------------------
elizabeth

 2017/4/9 9:58Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1269
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: sister Elizabeth

ANEN! Yes dear sister that is exactly the conclusion I came to:)

Our Lord Jesus says; "that they may know you the one true and living God"


It seems that this is the whole purpose of all that God did, does and will do-
And it's for His sake,... He desires intimate fellowship (tabernacling) with His children and since sin entered and put up a wall, He Himself came and tore down that wall and reconciled us unto Himself. So is the whole purpose of salvation, sanctification, consecration, reformation, regeneration etc... that we might be conformed into the image of His Son so that we may have eternal fellowship with Him:)

(For me) when I realized this it put the whole of His wonderous works, His patience, His justice, His holiness and glory into a seamless perspective. From beginning to end He had one thing in mind (fellowship) and will Have His will be done:)
Hallelujah!!!

And thank you for your kind words~


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Fletcher

 2017/4/9 11:27Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1269
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Travis

Yeah that's what got my spirit moving on this, yes salvation, yes holiness, ... but why and to what ends ? That's where I began to observe that just receiving forgiveness was the objective of most people and most ministries seem to have salvation as an ends in and of itself rather than a beginning of our life in Christ... and with that discipleship (learning obedience) is all but gone in many places. As a result of not knowing Gods will, the body has suffered from spiritual malnutrition and not because Jesus isn't offered, He clearly is, but because we aren't seeking (as a body) the same thing God the Father is and so we don't feed on Christ. It's almost as if we (the body) sit at His table, where a feast has been prepared, and cry out in hunger and thirst,... the Lord says take up the fork of faith and the cup of obedience and feed- yet we (as a whole) don't. All the while the church becomes more worldly and millions lose the opportunity everyday as they perish in their sins and it's with a heavy heart that I submit that their blood is on our hands.

While listening to Keith Green one day it occurred to me that the primary difference Jesus made between the sheep and the goats was fellowship (intimately knowing) the one and not the other...

From this I gleaned that when we are in fellowship with God through Christ Jesus, we are being used by Him wether we know it or not- whereas if we're not in fellowship with God then no matter what we do, at the end of the day it is all vanity-



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Fletcher

 2017/4/9 14:15Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: An Ends or a Means

This is an important question to consider because it brings God's eternal purpose in creating mankind into view. Men are constantly confusing the part with the whole. So many are enamoured with God's grace - and rightly so - but we should not let it cause us to overlook His purpose in creation.

Devern Fromke deals marvellously with this topic in his book Ultimate Intention, I would encourage all to read it, I found it eye opening.

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2017/4/9 16:43Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1269
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Ron

Thank you for that info!
I had not heard of this book but will find a copy:)

Yes it is about Gods eternal purpose and yes His grace serves to enable that purpose but is not itself the purpose. It is also true (in my experience) that grace becomes the focus rather than Christ which seems to be due to Gods eternal purpose not being made clear by those whom minister the gospel of grace-


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Fletcher

 2017/4/9 16:57Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 657
Australia

 Re: Fletcher



“Yes it is about Gods eternal purpose and yes His grace serves to enable that purpose but is not itself the purpose. It is also true (in my experience) that grace becomes the focus rather than Christ which seems to be due to Gods eternal purpose not being made clear by those whom minister the gospel of grace-“



William (StirItUp) wrote this in another thread:

There are different "graces" as in graces which could be interpreted as gifts, such as the gifts (graces) of the Holy Spirit.
Being fellow heirs of the grace of life is really the same as the gift of eternal life.
Whatever graces or gifts we may have received, they are all fruits or branches or outflows of The Grace of God, Jesus Christ our Lord.

" for of His fulness have we received, and grace upon grace"

The grace of God is nothing else but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and in Him, the undeserved favor and gift of Life that we have received.

" and this is Eternal Life, that they may know You,the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent"

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all!



Agree with William.



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Jade

 2017/4/9 21:24Profile





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