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savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
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 To change the future or to not change the future




Rather than hijack the Revelation thread, I am offering this by Robert Shaw, in answer to a question on that thread about our ability to change the future.



Of God's Eternal Decree

Section I.–God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Section II.–Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.


By the decree of God is meant his purpose or determination with respect to future things; or, more fully, his determinate counsel, whereby, from all eternity, he foreordained whatever he should do, or would permit to be done, in time.
This subject is one of the most abstruse and intricate in theology, and it has been the fruitful source of a variety of controversies in the Christian Church. But whatever diversity of opinion may obtain respecting the details of the doctrine, "no man will deny that there are divine decrees, who believes that God is an intelligent being, and considers what this character implies. An intelligent being is one who knows and judges, who purposes ends and devises means, who acts from design, conceives a plan, and then proceeds to execute it. Fortune was worshipped as a goddess for the ancient heathens, and was represented as blind, to signify that she was guided by no faced rule, and distributed her favours at random. Surely no person of common sense, not to say piety, will impute procedure so irrational to the Lord of universal nature. As he knew all things which his power could accomplish, there were, undoubtedly, reasons which determined him to do one thing, and not to do another; and his choice, which was founded upon those reasons, was his decree."
That God must have decreed all future things, is a conclusion which necessarily flows from his foreknowledge, independence, and immutability. "The foreknowledge of God will necessarily infer a decree, for God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be; and that because things would not be future, unless he had decreed they should be." If God be an independent being, all creatures must have an entire dependence upon him; but this dependence proves undeniably that all their acts must be regulated by his sovereign will. If God be of one mind, which none can change, he must have unalterably fixed everything in his purpose which he effects in his providence.

This doctrine is plainly revealed in the Scriptures. They speak of God's foreknowledge, his purpose, his will, the determinate counsel of his will, and his predestination. "Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." - Rom. viii. 29. "He hath made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself:" "He worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."–Eph. i. 9, 11. " Christ," says an apostle, "was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God."–Acts ii. 23.
"The decrees of God relate to all future things, without exception; whatever is done in time was foreordained before the beginning of time. His purpose was concerned with everything, whether great or small, whether good or evil; although, in reference to the latter, it may be necessary to distinguish between appointment and permission. It was concerned with things necessary, free, and contingent; with the movements of matter, which are necessary; with the volitions and actions of intelligent creatures, which are free; and with such things as we call accidents, because they take place undesignedly on our part, and without any cause which we could discover. It was concerned about our life and our death; about our state in time and our state in eternity. In short, the decrees of God are as comprehensive as his government, which extends to all creatures, and to all events."

The decrees of God are free. He was not impelled to decree from any exigency of the divine nature; this would be to deny his self-sufficiency. Neither was he under any external constraint; this would be destructive of his independence. His decrees, therefore, must be the sovereign and free act of his will. By this it is not meant to insinuate that they are arbitrary decisions; but merely that, in making his decrees, he was under no control, and acted according to his own sovereignty.

The decrees of God are most wise. They are called "the counsel of his will," to show that, though his will be free, yet he always acts in a manner consummately wise. He needs not to deliberate, or take counsel with others, but all his decrees are the result of unerring wisdom. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" "Wisdom is discovered in the selection of the most proper ends, and of the fittest means of accomplishing them. That this character belongs to the decrees of God is evident from what we know of them. They are disclosed to us by their execution; and every proof of wisdom in the works of God is a proof of the wisdom of the plan in conformity to which they are performed."
The decrees of God are eternal. This our Confession explicitly affirms:–"God, from all eternity, did ordain whatsoever comes to pass." This is asserted in opposition to the Socinians, who hold that some, at least, of the decrees of God are temporary. Those decrees which relate to things dependent on the free agency of man, they maintain, are made in time. But what saith the Scripture? It expressly declares, that everything which has happened, and everything which is to happen, was known to God from everlasting. "Known unto God are all his works, from the beginning of the world."–Acts xv. 18. To suppose any of the divine decrees to be made in time, is to suppose the knowledge of the Deity to be limited. If from eternity he knew all things that come to pass, then from eternity he must have ordained them; for if they had not been determined upon, they could not have been foreknown as certain.

The decrees of God are absolute and unconditional. He has not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future; and the execution of his decrees is not suspended upon any condition which may, or may not be performed. This is the explicit doctrine of our Confession, and it is this principle which chiefly distinguishes Calvinists from Arminians, who maintain that God's decrees are not absolute but conditional.

"It is granted, that some of the decrees of God are conditional, in this sense, that something is supposed to go before the event which is the object of the decree, and that, this order being established, the one will not take place without the other. He decreed, for example, to save Paul and the companions of his voyage to Italy; but he decreed to save them only on condition that the sailors should remain in the ship.–Acts xxvii. He has decreed to save many from the wrath to come; but he has decreed to save them only if they believe in Christ, and turn by him from the error of their ways. But these decrees are conditional only in appearance. They merely state the order in which the events should be accomplished; they establish a connection between the means and the end, but do not leave the means uncertain. When God decreed to save Paul and his companions, he decreed that the sailors should be prevented from leaving the ship; and accordingly gave Paul previous notice of the preservation of every person on board. When he decreed to save those who should believe, he decreed to give them faith; and, accordingly, we are informed, that those whom he predestinated he also calls into the fellowship of his Son.–Rom. viii. 30. That any decree is conditional in the sense" of Arminians, "that it depends upon the will of man, of which he is sovereign master, so that he may will or not will as he pleases, - we deny. "My counsel', says God, "shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.'–Isa. xlvi. 10. But he could not speak so, if his counsel depended upon a condition which might not be performed." Conditional decrees are inconsistent with the infinite wisdom of God, and are in men the effects of weakness. They are also inconsistent with the independence of God, making them to depend upon the free will or agency of his creatures. The accomplishment of them, too, would be altogether uncertain; but the Scripture assures us, that "the counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, and the thoughts of his heart to all generations."–Ps. xxiii. 11. All his purposes are unalterably determined, and their execution infallibly certain. "There are many devices in a man's heart," which he is unable to accomplish, "nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand."–Prov. xix. 21.

It has been often objected to the doctrine respecting the divine decrees taught in our Confession, that it represents God as the author of sin. But the Confession expressly guards against this inference, by declaring that God has so ordained whatsoever comes to pass as that he is not thereby the author of sin. The decree of God is either effective or permissive. His effective decree respects all the good that comes to pass; his permissive decree respects the evi1 that is in sinful actions. We must also distinguish betwixt an action purely as such, and the sinfulness of the action. The decree of God is effective with respect to the action abstractly considered; it is permissive with respect to the sinfulness of the action as a moral evil.

It has also been objected, that if God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, human liberty is taken away. To this it has been commonly replied, that it is sufficient to human liberty, that a man acts without any constraint, and according to his own free choice; that the divine decree is extrinsic to the human mind; and, while it secures the futurition of events, it leaves rational agents to act as freely as if there had been no decree. This answer, it must be acknowledged, merely amounts to an assertion that, notwithstanding the decree of God, man retains his liberty of action. We still wish to know how the divine pre-ordination of the event is consistent with human liberty. "Upon such a subject," says Dr Dick, "no man should be ashamed to acknowledge his ignorance. We are not required to reconcile the divine decrees and human liberty. It is enough to know that God has decreed all things which come to pass, and that men are answerable for their actions. Of both these truths we are assured by the Scriptures; and the latter is confirmed by the testimony of conscience. We feel that, although not independent upon God, we are free; so that we excuse ourselves when we have done our duty, and accuse ourselves when we have neglected it. Sentiments of approbation and disapprobation, in reference to our own conduct or that of other men, would have no existence in our minds if we believed that men are necessary agents. But the tie which connects the divine decrees and human liberty is invisible. "Such knowledge is too wonderful for us; it is high, we cannot attain unto it.'"–Ps. cxxxix. 6.

It may be further observed, that, although God has unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass, yet this does not take away the contingency of second causes, either in themselves or as to us. Nothing can be more contingent than the decision of the lot, - yet "the lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."–Prov. xvi. 33

 2017/3/8 10:13Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re: To change the future or to not change the future

This quote from that long article boils the author's position down to basics:

"whatever is done in time was foreordained before the beginning of time."

If that is true, how utterly bored God must be. But beyond that, how monstrous God must be.

Obviously, since God is neither bored nor monstrous, that quote cannot be true.


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Todd

 2017/3/8 11:13Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Not a man





"...since God is neither bored nor monstrous, that quote cannot be true."

Equation:

God
- boredmonster
_________________
- foreordination

A book I'd recommend to those who believe the above is,
"Your God is too Small".

 2017/3/8 12:00Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I don't quite understand the equation. Haven't took math in a while.


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Todd

 2017/3/8 12:24Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: I AM




James P. Boyce on those Scriptures which address this:

1. God's decrees are eternal. Act 15:18; Eph 1:4; 3:11; 1Pe 1:20; 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 1:9; 1Co 2:7.
2. They are immutable. Psa 33:11; Isa 46:9.
3. They comprehend all events.
(1.) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan 4:34,35; Act 17:26; Eph 1:11.
(2.) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Pro 16:33; Mat 10:29,30.
(3.) Also of the free actions of men. Eph 2:10,11; Phi 2:13.
(4.) Even the wicked actions of men. Act 2:23; 4:27,28; 13:29; 1Pe 2:8; Jud 1:4; Rev 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen 37:28, with Gen 45:7,8, and Gen 50:20. See also Psa 17:13,14; Isa 10:5,15.
4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Psa 33:11; Pro 19:21; Isa 14:24,27; 46:10; Rom 9:11.
5. They are sovereign. Isa 40:13,14; Dan 4:35; Mat 11:25,26; Rom 9:11,15-18; Eph 1:5,11.
6. They include the means. Eph 1:4; 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2.
7. They determine the free actions of men. Act 4:27,28 ; Eph 2:10.
8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph 2:8; Phi 2:13; 2Ti 2:25.
9. The decree renders the event certain. Mat 16:21; Luk 18:31-33; 24:46; Act 2:23; 13:29; 1Co 11:19.
10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible for them. Gen 50:20; Act 2:23; 3:18; 4:27,28.

 2017/3/8 15:10Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

That sure goes to show how one man can really misinterpret scripture, especially "While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible for them." Preposterous.


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Todd

 2017/3/8 17:49Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: I AM GOD



Romans 9

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 2017/3/8 18:24Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I train my dog to track and kill rabbits.

When I let it loose in the field, it tracks and kills a rabbit because that is what I trained it to do.

I then beat my dog to death for tracking and killing the rabbit as it was trained and as I knew it would behave.

Crazy and evil humans might do something like this, but certainly not God.


_________________
Todd

 2017/3/8 20:59Profile





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