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BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
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 Re:


William,

I am not against leaders and pastors and elders.

The apostle Paul and men like Hudson Taylor (who founded the China Inland Mission) are leaders we can truly honour and respect.

What I disagree with is how some leaders define their "authority" and exert their authority.

I am not comfortable with this statement of Watchman Nee:

"It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother."


Watchman Nee has many wonderful teachings that I agree with. BUT in his later years he was much influenced by the Exclusive Brethren.




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Jade

 2017/1/13 3:30Profile
StirItUp
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 Re: Mutual responsibility

God saves men in order to gain living stones for the building up of the spiritual house. If there were only individual, isolated stones, there would not be a spiritual house. Our breaking of the bread is a manifestation of the whole Body of Christ. Everyone who breaks bread should be responsible to the whole Body of Christ; he should see that he is responsible to all those who have fellowship with him. Therefore, every time we are about to receive a brother into our bread-breaking meeting, the responsible brothers should show him that the breaking of bread is for the discerning of the Body. It is not only a discerning of the Lord’s body but a discerning of the Body of Christ. If we do not discern the Body, we are committing sin.

Therefore, all the brothers who are breaking bread should realize the scriptural requirement for breaking bread: (1) A person must be saved, and (2) he must not be one who commits the sins in 1 Corinthians 5. Moreover, he should know the responsibility he bears as a brother who partakes of the bread. He is responsible to the local brothers, and he is responsible to the assemblies in all places. If any brother is not clear about the responsibility he should bear, we should not reject him but allow him to consider, and we should show him the consequences of not bearing this responsibility. He should realize that the breaking of bread is not only for the remembrance of the Lord but also a matter of responsibility to the fellowship of the church. If a brother is clear about all these matters and is willing to take the responsibility, he can be received. Otherwise, we should allow him to consider carefully and think clearly. He should then make the decision by himself whether or not he wants to fellowship with us.


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William

 2017/1/13 5:21Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
"It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother."


Watchman Nee has many wonderful teachings that I agree with. BUT in his later years he was much influenced by the Exclusive Brethren.




Brothers,

From my knowing of his life, mid way through his life in England he was influenced heavily by the exclusive brethren and had fellowship with them and also T. Austin Sparks. The Plymouth Brethren ended dis-fellowshipping watchman Nee.

Watchman Nee returned to china and started local churches called the "Little Flock" with a modified teachings of the brethren with his own reading of the Scriptures.


found this on further research:

"The Plymouth Brethren connection[edit]
Through Barber, Watchman Nee was introduced to the writings of D.M. Panton, Robert Govett, G.H. Pember, Jessie Penn-Lewis, T. Austin-Sparks, and others. In addition, he acquired books from Plymouth Brethren teachers like John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, and C.H. Mackintosh.[10] Eventually, his personal library encompassed over three thousand titles on church history, spiritual growth, and Bible commentary, and he became intimately familiar with the Bible through diligent study using many different methods. In the early days of his ministry, he is said to have spent one-third of his income on personal needs, one-third to assist others, and the remaining third on spiritual books. He was known for his ability to select, comprehend, discern, and memorize relevant material, and grasp and retain the main points of a book while reading.[12]

Nee derived many of his ideas, including plural eldership, disavowal of a clergy-laity distinction, and worship centered around the Lord's Supper, from the Plymouth Brethren. From 1930 to 1935, his movement was associated internationally with the Raven-Taylor group of Exclusive Brethren (which in 2012 was renamed the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church), which "recognized" the Local Church movement as a parallel work of God, albeit one that had developed independently. Nee refused, however, to follow their practice of isolating themselves from other denominations, and rejected their ban on celebrating The Lord's Supper with other Christians. He also expressed concern about increasing authoritarianism in the Exclusive Brethren, and what he saw as the creeping concentration of power in the hands of James Taylor, Sr. Matters came to a head when it became known that Nee had worshipped with non-Brethren Christians like T. Austin Sparks during a 1933 visit to the United Kingdom, and with non-Brethren missionaries during a United States visit in 1935. Nee received a letter dated 31 August 1935, signed by leading Brethren, excommunicating him and his movement.[13]" from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchman_Nee#The_Plymouth_Brethren_connection


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/1/13 6:43Profile
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 Re: The Lord's Table...

... have any of you ever understood the Lord's Table in this depth and seriousness? Does this not convict us?

"Question: We know that when we receive a person, we have to ask him four questions: (1) Is he saved? (2) Does he have the obvious sins in 1 Corinthians 5? (3) Is he willing to be responsible to the meeting? (4) Is he willing to fellowship with the brothers? If a person is saved and does not have any obvious sins that forbid him from partaking of the bread, yet he does not want to be responsible to the meeting or fellowship with the brothers, and instead wants to control us, what should we do?

Answer: Please notice that the first and second points are our conditions for receiving a person to the Lord’s table. The third and fourth points are for discerning the Body. If such a person does not discern the Body, he is eating judgment to himself. All who serve as elders in an assembly should be clear about this. Furthermore, there are two aspects to discerning the Body. First, we have to discern that this Body is the Body of the Lord Jesus and that when we break bread, we are eating and drinking for the remembrance of the Lord. Second, we have to discern this Body as the whole Body of Christ. When we gather together on the Lord’s Day evening to break bread, we should realize not only that the ones who are breaking bread together are the Body of Christ, but that all those who are redeemed by the precious blood of the Lord are the Body of Christ. If a Japanese comes to our midst and breaks bread with us, we should acknowledge him as our dear brother just like all other brothers. If the British in Tibet start a war with China, and an English brother comes into our midst to break bread with us, we should regard him as our dear brother. We should not care for the distinction that exists between men but only for our relationship in the Body of Christ. If one who does not discern the Body comes to break bread with us, we can ask whether he is willing to discern the Body. Is he willing to be responsible to the church for all his actions? If he is not, we will not reject him from partaking of the bread, because he is saved. However, we have to let him know that if he does not discern the Body, he is eating judgment to himself and that it will be to his loss.

Question: Will one die if he eats judgment to himself?

Answer: Yes, he may. If a meeting is holy, and if it knows how to exercise God’s authority, such things can happen. Why is the breaking of bread so important? When one recognizes the Body of Christ and acknowledges that he is a part of this Body yet does not discern it, he is making a false testimony and putting God to shame. Moreover, the testimony of the bread is made before angels, demons, and all the principalities and powers. Therefore, if one makes a false testimony, it is a great shame to God. God will bear with ignorant ones. But to those who sin willingly, who acknowledge yet make false testimonies, He will send forth His punishment.

Question: In a certain place, one brother has incurred a serious illness. He once committed the sin of reviling. Is his illness a punishment from God?

Answer: Yes, it is.

Question: If a brother is sick, must he ask the elders to anoint him with oil before he can be healed?

Answer: There are a few reasons why believers become sick. Some illnesses are caused by carelessness in the natural realm. Some are caused by attacks from Satan. Some are the result of being detached from the Body of Christ. If a believer is sick because of being detached from the Body of Christ and because he is not holding the Head and standing in the proper position in the Body of Christ, he should first understand how he has become detached before he asks the elders to anoint him with oil. The meaning of anointing with oil is to return to the proper position in the Body of Christ through the Holy Spirit. We all know that we are members in the Body of Christ. Just as a member in our body receives the circulation of blood and the life of our body, so the members of the Body of Christ receive the circulation of Christ’s life and His blood. This is typified by the ointment which flows from Aaron’s head to his whole body. As long as the members are standing in their proper positions, the ointment will flow to them; they will receive the protection of the ointment, and their sickness will be gone. All those who take the proper standing in the Body of Christ are under the anointing of the Head. The ointment is on Christ the Head, but it flows from the Head to us. When we have the ointment, we have health. Where there is ointment, there is life. Believers are sick because they fail and because they have become detached and separated from the Body of Christ. When this happens, the life and ointment of Christ will not be able to flow to them.

The book of James says that if anyone among us is sick, he can ask the elders of the church to anoint him with oil (5:14). It says to ask the elders to do the anointing. The gifted ones are useless because the elders represent the church, the Body of Christ. The anointing of the oil signifies the restoring of the sick believer back to the anointing of the Head. If you can bring a person back to the anointing of the Head, his sickness will be healed."


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William

 2017/1/13 7:18Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The book of James says that if anyone among us is sick, he can ask the elders of the church to anoint him with oil (5:14). It says to ask the elders to do the anointing. The gifted ones are useless because the elders represent the church, the Body of Christ. The anointing of the oil signifies the restoring of the sick believer back to the anointing of the Head. If you can bring a person back to the anointing of the Head, his sickness will be healed."



Dear brother,

Just a word of caution about the translation you are using, there are 2 major translations of Watchman Nee's works, one is by Stephen Kaung and the other by Witness Lee. You are using Witness Lee's translations and they do change words and vocabulary to match their desires for their church movement, there can be a deception with this.

Otherwise the quotes are wonderful and there is lots of true to be gleamed. This is the book publisher for Stephen Kaung and his translations of watchman Nee's works: http://www.c-f-p.com/default.asp

I do wish they would release the text freely on the web, perhaps they will at a later date.

All I am saying is to have some caution over exact words, not that witness lee's translation is terrible or totally disingenuous.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/1/13 7:35Profile
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 Re:

Thanks brother Greg,

I am not pushing Nee's writings as such but as I am reading I am sharing what makes an impact in me.
I do read through it (sometimes quickly) and will take care not to post something that is obviously in error.

I appreciate Watchman Nee's depth and detail and clarity with which he teaches and as you say, I think we can learn a lot from him.

The body is still going through much of what he shared and what they were experiencing even then.

Blessings,


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William

 2017/1/13 8:27Profile
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 Re: Breaking of Bread Meetings

The first point we should emphasize is that we are at the bread-breaking meeting to remember the Lord. Therefore, the Lord should be the center. It is unsuitable to offer prayers and supplications at the bread-breaking meeting. Of course, we can thank and praise the Lord through our prayers, but we should not remember our own needs during the bread-breaking meeting. The meeting on the Lord’s Day evening is purely for thanksgiving and praise.

According to the light of the Bible, there should be two sections to the bread-breaking meeting. Before the breaking of bread, we have the Lord Jesus before us; after the breaking of bread, we have the Father before us. Before the breaking of bread, the Lord leads us to remember Himself. Therefore, all thanksgiving and praise should have the Lord as the center; everything should be centered upon the Lord. Before the breaking of bread, we see the Lord Jesus as the only begotten Son; He is the only Son. After the breaking of bread, we see the Lord Jesus as the firstborn Son; we have a share in the Son of God and have become God’s many sons. Before the breaking of bread, the Lord Jesus is one grain of wheat; after the breaking of bread, He is the grain that has fallen to the ground and died and brought forth many grains. By discerning the Body of Christ, we see the Lord as the firstborn Son, as depicted in Hebrews 2. He is leading many sons into glory, and in the assembly He is leading them to sing praises to the Father.


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William

 2017/1/13 8:42Profile
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 Re:

You can speak with two sincere Jehovah Witness's that have never talked with each other and they will give you an almost verbatim answer for almost any question that might ask them, Mormons undoubtedly the same way, Church of Christ whom ironically pride themselves as not being a denomination are the same way. But not only that, it is this way with more orthodox Church's ,groups, sect's etc.

Many groups started out because : 1 or a few men started realizing the Biblical Body Paradigm with Christ as the Head of each individual members conscience (aka priesthood of all believers) vs the chains of bondage, the prison of subjecting ones conscience under another man conscience or ecclesiastical hierarchy

There is a repeated pattern through out history which is why we have so many denominations, sects and groups :

Various men through out history have recognized these truths for themselves and when they do they break away from the ecclesiastical hierarchy that they have been suppressed under.
They recognize the Scriptural Body Paradigm (aka priesthood of all believers) But in every instance that I am aware of through out history they have recreated the ecclesiastical hierarchy with there own convictions as the rule.

add
clarity


 2017/1/13 10:20Profile
Sree
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 Re:

Quote:
You are using Witness Lee's translations and they do change words and vocabulary to match their desires for their church movement, there can be a deception with this.



Good to know that there is another translation that is available for Nee's work that is not touched by Lee. I heard that the olden editions that came 30 to 40 years back are legitimate work of Nee.


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Sreeram

 2017/1/13 11:42Profile
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 Re: BranchinVINE

Quote:

The apostle Paul and men like Hudson Taylor (who founded the China Inland Mission) are leaders we can truly honour and respect.

What I disagree with is how some leaders define their "authority" and exert their authority.

I am not comfortable with this statement of Watchman Nee:

"It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother."


Watchman Nee has many wonderful teachings that I agree with. BUT in his later years he was much influenced by the Exclusive Brethren.




Many have this understanding that they can submit to perfect leaders only. But God often tests us to submit to imperfect elders or leaders. Jesus was tested to see if he was willing to submit to and get baptized by John the Baptist who was not as spiritual as Jesus. John even doubted Jesus when he was in prison. Still Jesus was willing to Submit to John's authority.

Similarly Jesus was also expected to submit to Mary and Joseph who were not perfect still he submitted to them as long as he was at home.

Imagine if our children tell us that, "I will submit to you father and mother only if you are like Paul or Hudson Taylor, otherwise I will live the way I want because you are not perfect yourself", what can we tell them? Is it not insubordination?

Church is also a family, only difference is it is a family of God. If you are sure that it is a Church where Jesus is head and he has appointed the Elder, then you should be willing to submit to the elder even if the Elder is wrong. If the elder is leading you away from Jesus then it is a different story, but in all other cases of misunderstanding or false accusation, it is always required to submit and remain humble.

I am not telling a theory that is not true in my life. In my life, I was misunderstood, judged wrongly etc but I have always chosen to humble myself to the authority that God has put above me.

In many cases, I have seen insubordination due to reasons like the elder is not theologically strong like me etc, which are not correct. I believe this is what Nee is addressing here.


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Sreeram

 2017/1/13 11:56Profile





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