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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Is Alcohol Use Among Christians The New 'Golden Calf'? by Shane Idleman

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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3222
East TN (for the time being)

 Re: Who says Jesus didn't drink wine?


I would like to know where in the Bible does it say that Jesus didn't drink wine?

It says He never sinned, not that He didn't drink wine so we know that He never drank to excess and sinned.

So where in the Bible does it say that Jesus didn't drink fermented wine?


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Lisa

 2017/1/8 19:05Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 327
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Sree wrote:
"I do not want to get too much into this discussion. But there is some truth in believing that Jesus did not drink an alcoholic wine. We can use the warnings in the scripture about alcoholic wines to apply to the verses on Jesus and come to that conclusion. We use this approach in so many places where one scripture is not clear, we apply another scripture to bring the light. Jesus always balanced scripture with scripture, even when he was tempted by Satan. If we blindly go by one interpretation of scripture then Jesus should have followed Satan to jump from the temple."

Very well put.


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Nigel Holland

 2017/1/8 19:11Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 327
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I recommend reading this short article by David Wilkerson:

http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/sipsaint.html


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Nigel Holland

 2017/1/8 19:13Profile
leyoung
Member



Joined: 2016/11/15
Posts: 148
Utah

 Re:

Dear bros (seems more bros in this discussion than sisters)
I do believe God put the man in authority over the women, husbands over wives and to be head over the household. And that women are to respect the husband and the children to obey their parents.

What does this have to do with this subject of drinking? I'm not sure, I just started off with that to let you know I wish to be submissive and respectful as a woman here! :-)
We all know that fallen man and woman have no reason or ability to obey God's laws and unless you at born again you are not able to obey the Holy Spirit.

We all seem to argue certain topics out of our own experiences and of course as believers we are told to love one another in the unity of the faith and prefer others over ourselves. This requires a kind of death. Death of having to be right and death of self. To be sure, I'm not operating that way most of the time!!! But sometimes I get it :-)

I totally gleaned something from everyone on this thread. Some, like me needed to vent frustrations and ask for prayer, some had testimony of being delivered from sin and darkness in the area of alcohol. Some argued out of frustration that things don't always have to be black and white and some wonder why the Lord even let wine be discovered in the human race and biblical accounts. Why did righteous Noah want to get Mdrunk as soon as he got off the ark? (Gen. 9:21) or Lot's daughter's get their father drunk with wine to get pregnant by him.(Gen. 19:32) or why did the Lord tell Aaron and his sons as priests not to drink wine nor strong drink whenl they went into the tabernacle lest they die and made it a statute forever throughout your generations. (Lev. 10:8-9) And yet "all the best of the oil and all the best of the wine...offer unto the Lord. And then tell Samson's mother not to drink wine when she was pregnant (Judges 13:4). And talk about wine as a mocker. (Prov. 20:1) then speak of the new wine in the gospels And the first miracle of Jesus making wine for the wedding feast then Paul warning about too much wine causing drunkeness and then advise medicinal wine for the stomach ,
And then end the Bible with tthe wine of the wrath of God on Revelation!!!

I guess what I am trying to say is that clearly there is no doctrine of consistency in the subject of wine, just as there are as many experiences and theories on wine when we discuss it.

Can we take away from one another as Greg has admonished us, and love one another and not argue. (I am guilty).
Some here needed to share of terrible experiences and need prayer for loved ones, others share lovingly while some want to be right, but clearly there is no right and wrong here. There are people who sin and use alcohol and there are people who don't sin and drink wine. Wine often leads to drunkeness and sin but wine is often a blessing in its proper use.

So the bottom line is we must listen to the Holy Spirit in every situation even if we think we have s scripture that says the opposite.

I learned that Nigel loves Jesus and needs prayer for those in his family who are addicted. I need prayer for someone in my family who loves the Lord but got to using alcohol as a stress reliever and comfort. I learned that some of you are willing to not drink so as not to make others stumble and I learned that some of you don't really care what others think but I see that we can all learn from one another and try to understand another's viewpoint and pray for one another. That is what I love about this site.
Thanks brothers and sisters,
L


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Leslie Young

 2017/1/8 19:14Profile
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 771


 Re:Jesus made wine,...

Jesus makes wine,.....
Is there something significant about this Scripture?
I really believe there is,because He expressed over and over in the Scriptures that His thoughts and actions were 'spiritual'--He said "The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit and they are Life",...."My meat is to do the will of my Father".
.."l have meat to eat ye know not what",..etc...His whole life was a life
and Spitual thought of His Father God.

Even as a child,when He tarried behind in Jerusalem,and His Mother
said unto Him,when they found Him,"Son,why hast thou dealt with us?
And He said unto them,How is it ye sought me?wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"

Jn.2:1,
"And the THIRD DAY there was a MARRAGE in Cana of Galilee;and the mother of Jesus was there: (v2),And both Jesus was CALLED,and His disciples,(learners) TO THE MARRIAGE.
(V3),And when they wanted WINE,the mother of Jesus saith unto Him,They have no WINE.
(look now at what Jesus says unto her)
"Woman,what have I to do with thee?mine hour is not yet come".
....(thoughts,speakings, I believe to be Spiritual.) and although He really
made WINE,....
If we continue on through the 11th verse,there is really a great Spititual meaning to be understood for us in this,..if we can just grasp it.
And I really do not claim to understand it to the fullest.

On my heart,
-------------
elizabeth






 2017/1/8 23:44Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3714


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus makes wine,.....
Is there something significant about this Scripture?



Great question! Jesus was a master at using everyday life to convey spiritual realities. He is the New Wine - the kind that tears old wineskins. It's ever expanding, ever lavish, so lavish that it offends our sensitives! Consider the amount of water in those jars. Enough to fill an entire baptistry! That's craziness, right? That's a lot of wine - a lot of lavishness, a generosity that stretches our imagination beyond capacity.

I believe that the "sacred calf" of today is self righteousness. You see it all over. It can subtly infect our attitudes. It does a lot of finger pointing.

Perhaps it helps to remember that in the Prodigal Son parable there were only two sons: Both were self-righteous. Both needed forgiveness and restoration with the Father.

There's no third son who got it right. Whatever each of us thinks about alcohol, we are equally in need of mercy.

Diane


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Diane

 2017/1/9 18:00Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3222
East TN (for the time being)

 Re:

Quote:
by roadsign
I believe that the "sacred calf" of today is self righteousness. You see it all over. It can subtly infect our attitudes. It does a lot of finger pointing.

Perhaps it helps to remember that in the Prodigal Son parable there were only two sons: Both were self-righteous. Both needed forgiveness and restoration with the Father.

There's no third son who got it right. Whatever each of us thinks about alcohol, we are equally in need of mercy.


Thank you for pointing this out. Amen

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2017/1/9 18:39Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1546


 Re: calves and elephants




This equation is wrong;


Christian
+ - Alcohol
____________
Self-righteous

Just as this equation is wrong;


Christian
+ Head covering
_______________
Self-righteous


This equation is right;

Christian
+ Speculation
______________
Confusion


DO NOT BE DRUNK WITH WINE BUT BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT!

 2017/1/10 7:17Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 505
America's Heartand

 Re:

A BALANCED PERSPECTIVE ON CHRISTIANS AND ALCOHOL

And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. Deuteronomy 14:24-26 ESV



It's clear that God commanded in certain circumstances the tithe be transferred to cash. The money was to then be used to buy refreshments and be enjoyed with gratitude and thankfulness in His presence. In this scripture God Himself gave sanction to the use of wine and strong drink in a limited and God honoring fashion.



It is an undeniable fact that -


- Part of John Calvin's salary was paid each year in a great number of casks of alcoholic wine.
- Martin Luther clearly, and frequently, enjoyed mugs of beer/ale and glasses of wine. 


- John Wesley had ministers sometimes partially paid in portions of rum.


- The Puritan pilgrims found one of the primary reasons to get off the Mayflower was that they had run short of beer. One of their first tasks they undertook was to establish a brewery. In fact a great percentage of the cargo brought with the pilgrims was beer for themselves!



I could list many more examples both Biblically and historically. However, the topic is so emotionally charged for many they can not discuss it on the basis of Biblical and historical merit. They are unable to see anything beyond their own preconceived, and often prejudicial, leanings. They are just to emotionally wound up in it. It also seems virtually impossible for Christians who have staked out a position on a topic to ever change it. That would mean admitting they were wrong. The religious pride is then injured. Very few are ever mature enough to do that.



In the final analysis alcohol is treated the same in scripture as food and sex.
Proverbs in particular gives some insight in this area. It goes like this-



1. Food is from God. Used as He intended it is a great blessing to be enjoyed. Food used outside His parameters is called gluttony and a sin.



2. Sex is from God. It was His idea (gasp!). Used as he intended (one man and one woman for life within the marriage covenant) it is a tremendous blessing. Used outside of His parameters it is fornication, adultery, Sodomy, etc. and a sin.



3. Wine/Alcohol is from God. Used as He intended (to gladden the heart of man and be received with thankfulness in His presence) it is a great blessing. Used outside of His parameters it can become drunkenness which He calls a sin.



If the answer a person embraces to avoid drunkenness is to never partake of any alcohol then the they must also refuse all food for fear of gluttony and all sex for fear of fornication. They are treated the same in scripture.

 However, if each is used within the God given parameters in scripture then they are blessings from His hand to be enjoyed responsibly in His presence.



Psalm 104:14-16 seems to articulate that balance well-



14. You (God) cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.


That Psalm 
specifically states that one of the reasons God brings forth plant life from the earth is to create wine to gladden the heart of man.



Seems simple enough.

 2017/1/13 11:19Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3222
East TN (for the time being)

 Re: Solomon101




Thank you for this excellent post.

God bless
Lisa


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Lisa

 2017/1/13 13:06Profile





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