| Re: Savannah |
Ahhh ok, I was thinking that was what you were saying and didn't want to misunderstand. Thank you for clarifying:)
And FTR I can totally agree with your position on this~
| 2017/1/7 10:32||Profile|
| Re: |
Dear Brother Todd,
Sometimes it is futile to analyze how a tolerance for something that is not necessarily evil ( a glass of wine with dinner or an occasional beer,) becomes an inroad for the enemy to use in someone's life.
Yes, and it is not just one but several true believers I know have gone from that former sentence about a sip here and there to a place of allowing drunkenness to make them addicted.
It scares me terribly and then when someone drives they put others lives in danger. I just see at this juncture that abstaining altogether is a preferable place.
This is not about legslism. It is about being wise. And there will always be people accusing us of attempting to be "holier than thou" but I would rather be accused of that than causing someone to stumble.
I know of unbelievers who get addicted to take away pain, sorrow and guilt. My own paternal grandfather died young of cirrhosis of the liver. Alcohol destroyed his life literally , but a born again believer generally repents of drinking and drunkenness and to take it up again is something very dangerous. Because there is a tendency to allow it to dull the same kinds of things: pain,sorrow and guilt instead of allowing the Lord to bring healing.
I'm just seeing this in real time and I do ask for your prayers that these believers be delivered now, quickly.
If your family has never experienced this I pray that they never do. I did not think this could happen in my family. But it has. And iit was a choice made somewhere along the line to veer off the narrow way. May they choose life and not death and know that the Risen Savior who resides in them has the power to slay this dragon.
| 2017/1/7 11:20||Profile|
| Re: |
Drinking alcohol is one of the warned on topics in Scripture. It stands out to us because drinking is everywhere. The warning presents a consonant tone to the world as a whole. It makes you look up and acknowledge it.
I am a teetotaller. The warning on my ears seems to be so true, so vital that it is more than a warning, but a way. A way -- one of many ways -- that help me stay eyes open, head up, face forward to the prize of the high calling of God in Christ.
Others hear the warning with a bit of weary disgust. Others still hear it and say, "I'm with you, I hear, I see and I am going to walk this way aware of the risk but without letting the truth slip from my mind." Others --- most everyone --- shake their heads quickly and slough off the warning they heard.
Wisdom is justified of her children, Jesus said. Of the latter three "others" listed in the previous paragraph, their wisdom or foolishness will become apparent in the consequences of their actions. Only the second group can realistically have an expectation of victory, but with risk of falling short.
My own hope is that all believers would put it away. But, there are "others" like those in that second group who believe and drink and are mindful of the scriptures and do manage not to offend God in their conduct of drinking. Since that is true, I love them as brothers and sisters.
The golden calf article is right. Too many in the church and as church leaders are those who hear the warning and shake their heads in weariness at hearing it. It is a symptom of a heart already given over to the idol.
I have shared here in the past my experience and my understanding of booze as an idol, and how that the idolatry of it -- as opposed to the simple addiction to it and consequences of drunknness -- is the real trap, the real deception. In this particular day and time, I do believe that those who drink alcohol, profess Christ, and reject the warnings are deceived servants of a false god. I also fear for true believers who drink that the idolatry within is a lurking enemy that they may drop their guard against and that they may begin to serve it and fall short of Christ. But, Jude 22 instructs mercy on them while they work out the truth vs the lie; so, mercy and truth and love I will yield to them.
| 2017/1/7 11:51||Profile|
| Re: |
Proverbs 23:30-35 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Those who linger long over wine,
Those who go to a tasted mixed wine.
Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent
And stings like a viper.
Your eyes will see strange things
And your mind will utter perverse things.
And you will be like one who lies down in the middle of the sea,
Or like one who lies down on the top of a mast.
“They struck me, but I did not become ill;
They beat me, but I did not know it.
When shall I awake?
I will seek another drink.
The writer of Proverbs is describing one who is in an altered state of reality when dtinking wine or other strong drink. The issue is not that drinking is a matter of one's own liberty in Christ. The issue becones one of holiness and concencration to the Lord. The issue becomes one of staying away from Satanic gateways.
Drinking alcohol can he equated to taking drugs. The chemistry of the mind is altered. Moral judgment is impaired. The mind and heart are open to satanic temptation and possession. People, particularly Christians, have done and said things that they do not remember in a sober state. This is why alcohol should be avoided. To take in any type of alcohol even one glass of wine or one can of beer will affect the chemistry of the mind and consequently open up the gateway to demonic possession or influence.
If I came on this forum saying that my Christian Liberty would allow me to go to a fortune reader or play with tarot cards or to play around with a Ouija board. I imagine forum members would object and say that this would open up the realm to the occult. The taking in of drugs or alcohol into the body will do the same thing.
In the end times it is prophesied that there will be a rise in sorcery. In our Western mindset we think of the witch doctor in Africa or the voodoo priest down in the Caribbean doing their wicked satanic deeds. But the root word sorcery in the Greek means pharmakeia. This is the word from which we derive the word pharmaceutical. This is the word from which we get drugs.
In our culture we speak of legal drugs and illegal drugs. But any type of drug be it legal or illegal has an effect on the body's chemistry. Any type of drug whether through a doctor's prescription, over the counter, through a drug dealer, or served by a bartender; will result in one entering into an altered state of reality. Thus so doing will open up their heart and mind to satanic control and possible demon possession. This even to Spirit-filled Christians.
Before we start arguing our right to drink alcohol as believers. We might want to take the words of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corithiabs 10:23,
... all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things efify...
So we do very well to ask herself in these dark times. Is drinking alcohol proftable to one's walk with Christ, Is drinking alcohol going to edify my brothers and sisters? Do I want to drink that glass of wine or that bottle of beer. Do I want to open up my mind to the demonic realm. Personally I want to have none of it as I want to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.
I am not speaking as a teetotaler. There was a time when I used to keep a six-pack of beer and sometimes more in my house. I would justify my drinking a beer as Christian Liberty. I believed the myth that a glass of wine would help with heart issues. But after seeing the effects on me. And coming face-to-face with demonics. After realizing one can lose control after drinking only one glass of wine. I've decided I wanted nothing to do with alcohol or anything else that would bring me into an altered state of reality that short of the Holy Spirit.
Also realizing that these times are growing darker. And the spiritual warfare is becoming more intense. It us wise that believers stay away from anything that could conceivably open them up to the demonic realm.
We agree as believers we should stay away from tarot card readers and fortune tellers. We agree as believers that we should stay away from Ouija boards. Let us also agree that we stay away from the bar and liquor store. For alcohol, just as a tarot card reader or a Ouija board, will certainly open up our mind to the satanic demonic realm.
Rather than be controlled by and unholy spirits
Let us choose to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.
Simply my thoughts.
| 2017/1/7 14:45||Profile|
Campbell River, B.C.
| Re: |
I don't care what anyone thinks they know, Jesus would never have restocked a bar with poisonous alcohol. He would never want people to get drunk, much less be the cause of it. Read Sipping Saints by David Wilkerson. The "wine" in that day was by and large non alcoholic, like grape juice. There was alcoholic wine, but I believe Jesus never partook of it. I know many, many people whose lives have been destroyed by alcohol, I've gone to their funerals, looked into their hopeless eyes, heard their cries for help to be free of this demonic bondage. I spent 15 years of my life addicted to various substances. Don't tell me the Bible sanctions the use of that swill from the pits of hell.
| 2017/1/7 16:10||Profile|
| Re: |
The master of the wedding at Cana said that the wine Jesus produced was "best." To suggest that he created some watered down version is not tenable.
We have been down this road before as Dave stated earlier on. No one here condones drunkenness and very likely almost everyone here would agree not drinking at all is probably the best policy.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN it is okay to torture scripture to make that point. Paul said don't get drunk, which implies people who drank the wine of that day would get drunk. The people at the wedding of Cana were tipsy- we know this because the wedding master, when he tasted Jesus's wine, was surprised that it was better than the wine that ran out. He observed that usually the better wine is served first, then when people get tipsy the cheap stuff is brought out because they won't notice. Psalms says that wine makes glad the heart of man. Noah got drunk on wine from his vineyard.
My point is that you can make your point about the preference and wisdom of teetotalism without arguing that the wine in bible times was non alcoholic or barely alcoholic. When you do that it just weakens your argument because it comes off as desperate pleading.
| 2017/1/7 18:00||Profile|
| Re: |
Drifter, We should not care what anyone 'thinks' they know including yourself. We should only care what the scriptures tell us. And it certainly does not tell what you just wrote. It's just what 'you think' based on your particular feelings.
Jesus actually said this in Mathew 11:18-19...
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil."
"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
Please tell us what Jesus meant by ' John not drinking and Jesus himself drinking'. What drinking is he talking about here? Did John abstain from drinking water or grape juice? Or could be as a Nazarite he abstained from alcoholic wine as that position requires? That then gives context to what drinking Jesus allowed himself, which opened Him up to false judgement. Nothing changes!!
Bearmaster that sounds very much like you are accusing Jesus of being influenced by a demon. I seem to remember the Pharisees saying a very similar thing.
I have not read anything so absurd as your last post! One glass of wine and you can be demonised! Really??!
| 2017/1/7 18:09||Profile|
Campbell River, B.C.
| Re: |
I challenge any one to tell me the difference between smoking a joint every now and then or doing just a little bit of coke to drinking just a few beers or a glass of wine. That verse in Matthew just said "drinking", not drinking alcohol. I drink every day, just not booze.
| 2017/1/7 18:18||Profile|
Campbell River, B.C.
| Re: |
And no one can prove to me that the water Jesus made into wine was alcoholic. My Jesus would never, ever restock a bar so people could get smashed.
| 2017/1/7 18:20||Profile|
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He just made wine. He didn't demand that people get "smashed."
Taking scripture as a whole God is not against wine- see Is 25:6. "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of AGED wine- the best of meats and the *finest* of wines."(my emphasis on "aged" and "finest.")
It does not say anything about God doing this to get people smashed.
| 2017/1/7 18:36||Profile|