Well done ye Nasher,

That must have taken you a fair while to put together that study. Anyone else with a Commentary that opens up this passage a little wider?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12]

Have a Gnash on Paris Riedhead's : Cost of Discipleship, the entire audio of the 12 part series is well worthy of a listen, especially part 2 which inspired me to write this thread in the 1st place.

plus. A really radical commentary on the whole Gospel of John, from Bible.org
link here

There is also a direct link to 'Abraham my Friend' by Philologos, on this thread, cliketh readeth.

Thanks for all the comments.

In Jesus
.A.
:-P

Nasher's email again: [email protected] - for those of you wanting a full study by Philologos on Abraham my friend.

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Eric John Sawyer

Hi aeryck,

These things are not original really. They are just my reflections on the subject as I hear seasoned men and women of God speak to the issues as well as what I have studied and observed. Listen to some of philologos (Ron Bailey) sermons here on SI as well as GW North. I think their finger is closer to the pulse of things than most I have heard and read.

What it boils down to in our generation is that there are the things that folks faith is standing in:

1) The wisdom of man
2) The 'Power' of God


Men come up with cunningly divised psychological and crafty remarks that tickle the ears and warm the hearts, but they are 'synthetic' truths. You can string words together in such a way as to make a statement sound 'anointed' as an oracle- when in reality it was just an expression of eloquence or 'word smithing.'

Listen to Paul in I Corinthians 2:4-5

[i]And my speech and my preaching was not with [u]enticing words of man's wisdom[/u],... [/i]

The word for enticing comes from the word [i]Peithos[/i] and it means to 'persuade'. Paul says here- I do not try to persuade people to faith in Christ with man's wisdom. If we look at some other passages we find him saying it again. Here we read:

[i]And I, brethren, whenI came to you, came [u]not with excellency of speech or of wisdom[/u], declaring unto you the testimony of God.[/i] (2:1)

Paul declares plainly that he did not rely on mere 'words' to convey the Gospel of God. Again, if man can be 'talked into' accepting Christ- he can be 'talked out of' abiding in Christ. This is where we have jumped the rails in ministry. If we have no 'demonstration' we have no ministry frankly. And the result? The faith of folk is standing in the wisdom of man and it does not lead them to Christ and our churches are filled with folk whose faith is founded on something 'other' than the power of God. It's a game really. See how many people we can persuade to come forward with our selection of words and fluctiation of voice. Add a few tears to the mix and we have a good dose of the 'wisdom of men'. this is [i]alien[/i] to the fulness of what Paul is speaking of.

We see a similar word used here:

[i]But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the [u]excellency[/u] of the power may be of God, and not of us.[/i] (II Corinthians)

This word means literally, "to throw beyond." He seems to be saying that the driving force behind their ministry is not rooted at all in themselves- but in God.

Here we read again:

[i]But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by [u]manifestation of the truth[/u] commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.[/i]

How does is the truth manifest to the people in Paul's ministry? He answered that already in his previous letter to them ( I Corinthians 2) Here again:


[i]...but in [u]demonstration of the Spirit and of power[/u]: that your faith would not stand in the wisdom of man but in the power of God.[/i]

This 'demonstration' in our generation has been craftilly substituted with 'mysticism'. The mysticism is eastern in origin and is in no wise biblical. Meditation in scripture means 'to speak aloud'. It is not some deep trance like meditation akin to TM. The 'demonstration' is the working of God in and through the people via the fruit [i]and[/i] gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul stated that this ministry appeals directly to the conscience of man. Why? because man's conscience speaks on behalf of God. It is hard to make your conscience go along with something that is 'false'. It is unaffiliated with the heart and mind and simply calls it as it sees it.

This is THE missing element in ministry. We can make crafty sermons and give crafty speeches. We can teach until high noon. We can string words together worthy of the King James oratory and not have a single drop of anointing though we have have a lot of eloquently strung facts.

The question is, when you open your mouth are you speaking the very oracles of God? Is it the sword of the Spirit- or is it the word distilled into some sort of scalding acid that gains a reaction- but cannot heal. A word from God will be first pure, peacable, gentle and easy to be entreated (so on and so forth). By way of analogy it will be "PH" balanced or at least will be no more or less 'caustic' than necessary. It will be a manifestation of truth that carries with it saving faith that will be 'established' in the Power of God.

God Bless,

-Robert

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Robert Wurtz II

Yo, RobertW

Nice of you to 'answer back' but are your ready for a strong rebuttal, or will that cast a shadow over 'your truth' which you claim is not yours but others.

Let us be straight up here, as I was with Philologus. What do you believe, the word believe means in the selected Scripture?

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P

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Eric John Sawyer

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Robert Wurtz II

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Robert Wurtz II

RobertW,

Thankyou for your 'non-original concepts':

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Eric John Sawyer

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Robert Wurtz II

aeryck
for these concepts I accept full responsibility

It all begins with God's revelation of His will to the heart. From then on...

[b]Wrong response to revelation is sin[/b]
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)

[b]Right response to revelation is faith[/b]
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17, KJVS) or as it might equally be translated 'faith originates in the speaking of God'

'believe' in John's gospel presumes something in which one believes. I know you would prefer this to stick to a single verse but language does not work like that. The word 'believe' did not suddenly spring to being in this verse. It has a history, and to ignore the history is to destroy any possibility of true exegesis. The word 'hosos' translated 'but' in the KJV is a 'correlative pronoun' which 'correlates' to the preceding verses and tells us that we cannot start here in our understanding of the verse. To force the conversation to do otherwise is to abandon all possibility of a right understanding.

The synoptics speak of 'the gospel' but John does not use this term. In keeping with the purpose and style of his record he uses the word 'witness/record/testimony': a term he uses over 30 times in his writings - John 1:7,19; 3:11,32-33; 5:31-32,34,36; 8:13-14,17; 19:35; 21:24; 1John 5:9-11; 3John 1:12; Rev. 1:2,9; 6:9; 11:7; 12:11,17; 15:5; 19:10; 20:4 (if others have the inclination the theme can be pursued in the appendix to an article called "Receiving Christ" To John the coming of Christ is the coming of the Word of God; the faithful and true witness. The purpose of John Baptist's work was to "bear witness to the Light, that all men through Him might believe". This is John's first use of the word 'believe' in The Witness of John (usually known as the Gospel of John). The purpose is plain; John Baptist's work is to point to The Witness so that those who hear will 'believe' what the Witness is revealing about God.

Consequently it is as 'The Witness' that Christ was rejected “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (John 1:11, KJVS) The word 'received' here is different to that in the next verse; this is paralambanO which means to take to one's side or as it is sometimes expressed 'to welcome'. He came to His own place but His own people turned Him away. BUT to as many as 'received' Him; this is the more usual word 'lambanO' meaning to take or receive. As many as did so were given the right to become the children of God; in the NT 'sons' often draws attention to relationship. This is the word 'child' which draws attention to family likeness. cf “I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39, KJVS) The contrast between paternity and family likeness is made very clear.

I believe I could justify a case here for a loose paraphase "to those who received His witness, to them he gave the right to share the family likeness". He calls these to whom the right to share the family likeness is given 'the believing ones'. As I mentioned in a previous post this construction points to a discernible characteristic. This is not a single act of faith; John never uses the word 'faith'. This is the continuing process of 'believing' The Witness. These who do so are they who are 'born, not of blood(s), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' The 'believing ones who were given the right to become the children of God' were 'born of God'.

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Ron Bailey

Yo U2,

So the word believe in the context, certainly needs to be clarified to those who are in darkness.

I just feel the intensity of God's Holy command to love Him, with all our heart and mind and soul, grabbing hold of me so hard, and not letting me get away with a simple. Yes, I believe in Jesus.

If it is anything less it can not produce the sort of fruit that John in the Epistles clearly states as a direct sign that has to be there if we are to be not of the world, and to have the love of the Father dwelling in us.

How will this happen if believing means anything less that the complete submission of the will.

My only example is the testimony of Charles Finney.

It is this strike at which I have been about since I first spoke, my pathetic truth onto these threads.

Be whatever it may, I hope that you will accept my warmest blessing in Jesus, for all your patient words.

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P

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Eric John Sawyer

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Robert Wurtz II