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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Manipulation in the Church and on the Forum

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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Heydave

Very Good Topic.

This subject is what makes it hard to hear from the Lord, other men trying to impose there own convictions on other mens conscience.

So we find ourselves in a constant struggle of trying to determine which of our convictions are true convictions from the Lord and which ones are manipulations of man.

 2016/11/23 11:01Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3199
Texas

 Re: Heydave

Quote:
proudpapa.....So we find ourselves in a constant struggle of trying to determine which of our convictions are true convictions from the Lord and which ones are manipulations of man.


Or, confusion from old slue-foot. :-)


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2016/11/23 11:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

A few years ago, I told someone about SermonIndex. I thought that this would be something that would have greatly blessed this person. After all, I feel immensely blessed by the treasure of messages contained here as well as my "iron-sharpens-iron" interaction with other believers from other places around the earth.

Now, I've told quite a few people about SermonIndex before and some have even joined the website or, at least, downloaded some of the message. However, this particular individual had mentioned a desire to get more "meat" from the Word of God that seemed to be missing in many local churches.

This person's words immediately reminded me of one of my favorite messages by David Wilkerson. In HOLY GROUND, David Wilkerson mentions having spoken with Leonard Ravenhill about so many youth who are hungry for the meat but only finding the chaff when it comes to lessons from teachers of God's Word. It motivated them to start a magazine called "Refiner's Fire." My friend's passionate hunger for more of Jesus made me realize that SermonIndex is sort of a new way of helping alleviate the need that David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill mentioned.

So, I told my friend about SermonIndex. A few months later, I ran into that friend again. I had no idea if that person had visited the website, downloaded sermons, signed up as a member or participated in forum discussions. So, I asked my friend about it.

My friend admitted that he had indeed visited the website. He had listened to some of the "top" sermons and enjoyed them. He even mentioned that he read through many of the forum topics. After all, he was eager to hear things from the perspective of others.

That friend told me that he was "discouraged" by this website. I was a bit surprised. I thought that he might have seen one of the infamous debates that often turn into back-and-forth arguments. However, he said that he was looking through the topics and somehow came to the conclusion that this website adhered to a very specific doctrinal creed.

I explained that there are many different types of believers who frequent the website and that the messages available here are from believers of diverse denominational and theological views. However, he said that he had assumed that the SermonIndex website promoted particular doctrinal views because they were prominently appeared on the forum over the various times that he visited. He mentioned a few of the topics that he was referring to and, yes, they are things that have often been presented and debated here by certain believers over and over again.

I explained that these discussions like those often come in "waves" (i.e., someone brings up the "rapture," "head coverings," etc. and within a few days there are several simultaneous threads on the topic), but that there are people here who see those issues from different perspectives and experiences. Still, he noticed the degree by which some topics are divisive and how people can become "agitated" by wanting to "prove" their perspective. He said that it was something of a "turn off."

He said that he would come back and visit, but I haven't had the opportunity to hang out with him since then. He finished grad school and moved elsewhere. His words did make me think.

I have noticed that much of the most divisive issues is just as Greg mentioned: "An unwillingness to learn and possibly take something good from the other position." Instead, it seems like a brother or sister in the Lord mentions their perspective and then feel overwhelmed by voices of dissent that seem to attack the position and subtly question how any truly spiritual person can arrive to such a position. This seems to lead to individuals feeling a need to defend themselves (or their position) for ever having believed as such.

Now, I know that this isn't always the case, but it is something that I've noticed before (and something that he noticed very quickly). People are quick to stake out what "God revealed" to them in the form of a doctrinal stand. I remember something that brother Paul Washer said at one of a Revival Conference about not trusting a young man with his daughter because he doesn't even trust himself. I think that the same thing can be true of doctrines -- especially controversial doctrines that are probably "non-essential" when it comes to salvation. Should we be so adamantly certain of what we believe or have studied and learned (in terms of non-essential issues) that we cannot possibly be wrong?

The last thing that my friend had said stung the most. He said that many of the things argued here are "confusing." I was surprised by his choice of the word "confusing" because he was earning a post-graduate science degree at a top university. When I asked him what he meant, he replied that the doctrines debated and argued about just seemed too complicated "for the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I haven't read through all of the posts here, but this simply came back to my mind after having read a few. Here's a link to David Wilkerson's message HOLY GROUND. It is a deeply moving message -- especially for believers interested in ministry.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=336


_________________
Christopher

 2016/11/23 23:11Profile









 Re:

Dave: You have a bit of a point about listening, discussing and accepting different views.
But my focus and the reason why I was also grieved is a bit different.
Quote: "This is an open forum and if folk post on here questions or thoughts they should expect (even welcome) a variety of opinions and response."
"The sister's opening post actually asked for input on both sides of this issue"

Her are just a few of those inputs and responses of that thread:

I think this topic has been covered extensively on SI.

That may be the understatement of the century.

Now whether it was discussed extensively is another qyestion. I might say it has been argued extensively and quite heatedly.

And although it has been argued extensively nothing has been resolved. And so when will the merry-go-round stop

This topic has been been discussed for pages and pages and pages.

The reason I seem to be this way is that this is one of those topics in which nothing is ever resolved.

What happens when a bald rug wearing man starts praying. Is that permissible or is that another top-ic altogether?

This sister didn't ask for those kind of inputs!
If someone has to plead to lock the thread then there is something seriously wrong !

Here are a few Scriptures what we should be able to expect if we come to a Christian forum:

And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds.Hebrews 10:24
but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching Hebrews 10:25
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," Hebrews 3:13
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. Philippians 2:3

The French have a saying that some of you might already know :
"c'est le ton qui fait la musique"
it is the tone that makes the music; it's not what you say but how you say it (i.e.: how things are said makes their meaning credible)

The sad thing for me is that sometimes the world is ahead of us.
Bottom line - Christ is not the main focus and His love is often missing!

 2016/11/24 1:24
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Markus,

Yes I agree with your overall point. However the responses you quoted I would not see as particularly offensive. I laughed at the bald wig joke, but maybe that's because I am a tad bald myself! The ones I found offensive were the ones in support of head coverings. I could list them all, but in general it was the demeaning and putting down of people who do not see it as they do as well as assuming that obedience means accepting their custom.

So this shows us the real issue....we (that's an inclusive 'we') only see an offense when it goes against our particular belief. We do not consider that strong condemnation of others on matters on conscience is wrong if it is our personal conviction. It is just considered OK to put the other person right, because ' I'm defending truth' or 'God's command'. I see this all the time and it is very common in the church. Worst of all I often see it myself....God help us to grow up.


_________________
Dave

 2016/11/24 5:28Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3199
Texas

 Re:

Dave, something deeper is going on here, not anything I would call bad, but have your ever wondered why only about 10 regulars start threads and are the only one's that post on these threads? I don't know how many members we have here, but my guess is lots, so what is keeping other members from starting threads, or even posting on the 10 regulars threads? I mean some of these threads have over 1200 views. It's either they've read enough of the 10 regulars threads and not dare get involved in those threads, or these threads are just to repetitious and confusing, or maybe their afraid of starting their own, thinking they will end up in a heated debate. I don't know why more folks don't participate in the forums, could be they're just listening to God, and he's telling them to stay far away from the forums.

Maybe the 10 regulars are just having a private Bible study. :-)

Just for the record, most know me here I'm not picking on anyone, I'm just curious to why there's not more participation in the forums.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2016/11/24 11:10Profile









 Re:

So if wearing a covering for a man in a church setting is wrong my question stands
Men with rugs or toupees should remove them before praying in public, right?
How about men and women who die their hair, is that a not covering as well, good for women, bad for men? We could go on forever with this...... oh we have.

1 Corinthians 11 13: 16

13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

 2016/11/24 11:10









 Re:

Exactly FrankLiri,
I dare not start a thread on women wearing makeup, they will be accused of being harlots by some on here lol.

I don't think the real problem in alll of these contentious threads is about a difference of opinion over doctrine so much, but rather a wrestling match with "religious spirits".

Time and time again I see this online and in person with Christians who believe a certain way and then someone comes along who believes otherwise and lives differently from them. And that really disturbs the religious spirits and those who consider themselves holy in outward areas get stirred up and go to great lengths to convince others that they are right.

If the truth be told they are trying to convince themselves.

Because of their pride they cannot consider for a moment that they might be wrong. And because of their pride they cannot ever backtrack because they are afraid of looking foolish for being bound up in legalism for so long.

So to protect themselves from that they find religious groups who believe and practice outward holiness exactly like them and they wall themselves in with these folks and pretend that they are the only true pure and holy expression of the body of Christ around.

 2016/11/24 11:24









 Re:

This is the bottom line

1 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

And of course ultimately the outer appearance reflects what is in the heart.
But religion is always putting the horse behind the cart.

 2016/11/24 11:36





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