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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Testing a prophecy

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 Testing a prophecy

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 King James Version (KJV)

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Jesus said to his disciples that the events that He prophesied in Matthew 24:1-22 would take place in their life time.

If these events did not take place in the lifetime of the disciples then Matthew 24:1-22 is not a true prophecy. (And definitely is not a prophecy for any other generation)

He said that these events (which I believe complete the establishment of his Kingdom (Luke 19:11-27)) have to take place before his second coming. He tells to the disciples that these troublous time do not signify his second coming:
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
In verses 24-31 He describes events that would happen after the days of tribulation (the tribulation that comes upon the disciple's generation) but these prophecies are not timed. So these events should be expected any time starting from immediately after the tribulation. These include the second coming of Jesus and the end of times.

 2016/11/18 12:15
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 Re: Testing a prophecy

Quote:
If these events did not take place in the lifetime of the disciples then Matthew 24:1-22 is not a true prophecy. (And definitely is not a prophecy for any other generation)



Brother,

As I have clearly stated in another forum thread on SermonIndex we do not promote or hold to Preterism but belief that Matthew 24 is speaking of future events. This is an orthodox position held by the early Church and believers beyond. We have asked that repeated threads by a few individuals on this subject cease as it has become an "agenda" by some.

The forums are free and open to discuss the Scriptures but on this topic it has already been discussed in length and in the end unprofitable to continually bring it back.

Jesus said clearly it is signs of the coming of the Lord and the end of the age:

Matthew 24:3
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”


----

The Preterists view on the book of Revelation is that its primary focus is on events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. Preterists insist on an early date for the book of Revelation to tie it into the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. Clearly John outlasted all the other apostles by more than a few years and is given the final book of the Bible, The Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:9). As the first century nears its close 7 historical churches are addressed. History tells us Revelation was written late in the first century. In Irenaeus’ work entitled, “Against Heresies” chapter 13:18, Irenaeus tells us when John had his apocalyptic vision and wrote the book. “For that [referring to John’s vision] Irenaeus wrote the following: “We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign” (written 180 AD).

No matter how good we are in dating manuscripts-we do not have the originals but we have those who are closest to that time-period. Irenaeus says John's apocalyptic vision was “towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” Domitian was a Roman Emperor his reign began in 81 AD ended in 96 AD. Irenaeus lived 120-202 A.D. he was discipled under Polcarp of Smyrna. Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John, and the bishop of the church of Smyrna in Asia. According to Polycarp the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. In his letter called To the Philippians he writes that his church, did not exist in the days of the apostle Paul before the destruction of Jerusalem. Symrna is not mentioned in the Book of Acts, nor in any other New Testament epistle, it was a late planted church. Sardis, Thyatira, Philadelphia and Laodicea are not mentioned in the book of Acts which most believe span 30 years of the early church. Preterists argue that Irenaeus’ writing is in poor condition so we cannot depend on its accuracy. But there are so many other sources we can draw from. I will mention a few, for I do not want to make this an article about what the early church thought on these matters.

One of the early Church Fathers, The Shepherd of Hermas, written in the early 2nd Century, states “the great tribulation that is coming,” which is a silly thing to state if the church believed it already took place.

The Didache was used as a church manual, most date it written at the latest about 100 A.D.. It says it is still future. ‘Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. …. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. … And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.” [Didache, XVI]

Again, Irenaeus a respected early church apologist that lived AD. 120-202 had this to say about future events- “It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX].



from: http://www.letusreason.org/proph19.htm


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2016/11/18 13:47Profile









 Re:

If the full thought is quoted it looks like this:

"Jesus said to his disciples that the events that He prophesied in Matthew 24:1-22 would take place in their life time.

If these events did not take place in the lifetime of the disciples then Matthew 24:1-22 is not a true prophecy. (And definitely is not a prophecy for any other generation)"

Thanks for the detailed answer. There are certainly a lot of things that I do not know. I attempted to make a biblical exegesis in my post.

According to the definition in wikipedia:
Preterism is a Christian eschatological view which interprets some (Partial Preterism) or all (Full Preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened.
According to this definition we are all preterists because we believe that the coming of the Messiah which was prophesied in the Bible already happened.

This definition leaves up to the readers which prophecies they consider future and past fulfilling prophecies.

Maybe I am not long enough on this forum to have seen all those discussions, could you please point me to a message where this verse of the Bible is discussed?
Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In Matthew 24:3 Jesus received 3 distinct questions:
1. When will this happen (referring to Jesus' prediction about the temple)
2. what will be the sign of your coming
3. and of the end of the age

In the following verses Jesus answered all three and at least the first - we know - already happened. (The destruction of the temple in 70 AD) So Jesus was speaking about at least some events in Matthew 24 that happened shortly after.

Ireneus's writings are not canonized, he had a second hand information about when the Revelation might have been written.There are other historical proofs that point to an earlier date of the book. The answer to this question is not finalized.
Many early Christians feared the second coming of Christ. So do I. But is there any proof that after 70 AD they also believed that they were going to go through a persecution that is prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24?

I appreciate SI for promoting biblical truth and all the speakers of sermons base their points on the Bible.
It is the characteristic of a denomination to base a teaching on something other than the Bible and to make this teaching unquestionable.

 2016/11/18 15:07
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 Re:

Quote:
Many early Christians feared the second coming of Christ. So do I. But is there any proof that after 70 AD they also believed that they were going to go through a persecution that is prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24?




In reality most early believers were suffering of the Lord and eager even at times to be martyrs. Currently around the world over 60% of believers are in persecuted countries and some are being martyred for their faith.

Preterism, Pre-Tribulational Rapture and other thinking like this was never started in areas where Christian persecution was strong but in countries that were christianized and in religious situations where there were no pressures from the world.

It is not up to us what is fulfilled as it is clear in Church history by true brethren Matthew 24 is yet to be fulfilled.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2016/11/18 19:59Profile









 Re:

I am not saying that Christians are not or are not going to be persecuted, but their persecution is not the necessary precursor of anything. Persecution today is not a condition without which Christ can not come back. The judgement however in the first century and a persecution at that time was specifically prophesied, and WAS a condition because it belonged to the establishment of God's Kingdom. The Kingdom had to be established before the second coming, so Jesus could come back to his Kingdom. This is how I see it.

In Matthew 24 among other things Jesus also speaks about the destruction of the temple which was fulfilled in 70 AD.

 2016/11/18 20:59
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 Re:

RE ///.........Matthew 24 is speaking of future events. This is an orthodox position held by the early Church and believers beyond///

Most are in agreement that Versus such as Matthew 24:16 : Where warnings to that Generation.

Wesley's Notes for Matthew 24:16
24:16 Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.

Most every one that I am aware of including futurist are in agreement that at least some of Matthew 24 is referring to those events that happened in 70 AD.

 2016/11/18 23:24Profile
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 Re:

We do not want to re-engage this debate as searching through older threads will show it was discussed at length.

It is clear from Matthew 24 that it is still speaking of a time to come even though the temple was destroyed in AD 70:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.



It is clear "great distress unequaled from the beginning of the world" has not occurred yet.


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 2016/11/19 7:18Profile









 Re:

"17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house."

Do people regularly walk on the top of modern houses?
Did they in the first century?

Let's compare scripture to scripture:

Luke 21:6-36 describes the same conversation between the disciples and Jesus as Matthew 24. So Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 are speaking about the same thing:
Matthew 24:15
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Luke 21:20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

The desolation of Jerusalem happened in 70 AD the eyes of the disciples had indeed seen it, and both above verses as well as Daniel are speaking about that.

the abomination that causes desolation = Roman army

 2016/11/19 11:12
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 Re:

Brother,

This is the end of the discussion we are not allowing for continued threads on Preterism. From our perspective it is not worth wrangling back and forth about in the Scriptures.

It is clear it is a view that has not been held by many in the past and created in more current non-persecuted environments. Instead of putting our energies to finding new ideas in Scriptures to explain away suffering we should embrace the cross of Christ and follow our Lord (1 Peter 4).

We ask that continued threads will not be opened or re-started in the forums on this subject, you are free to use the forums for discussions on other areas of Scriptures and discussions about sermons on this site, etc.

This thread is locked.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2016/11/19 11:22Profile





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