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dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Thanks for the verses Popcorn.

I think we can all agree that the new covenant was hinted at long before Christ was born - and that even after Christ was born it wasn't established until Pentecost. I am sure that we all know that the "new covenant" doesn't begin in Matthew - but in Acts.

The references in Matthew to Joseph's dreams are therefore old covenant references and add no light to our current discussion. They are wonderful verses though - who couldn't love God's provision?

The reference to Pentecost however does have some bearing on this topic, and I am glad you brought it up. Joel's prophesy was fulfilled at Pentecost and was quoted by Peter so that no one could mistake the inauguration of the New Covenant. With such signs and wonders the Apostles were validated by God as having authority to pen the New Testament.

Once the canon was closed those opening words from the letter to the Hebrews made sense - God used to speak to the people through the prophets who received God's message in many ways - but now, at the end of the ages God was going to change things. From here on in God wasn't going to speak through prophets, now God was going to speak to His chosen ones through Jesus Christ - the living Word. We have received this "word" into a tome we call the new testament - a tome that has remained sufficient and unchanged for some 1900 years.

Now that we have God's final and completed message for the church in book format, we view any private revelation as either "suspect" or "private" - that is, it is either a false thing, or meant for personal use and not for the church.

I certainly acknowledge the presence of dreams in the text of the new testament, but not in such a way as to offer support to the notion that God is now giving direction to His church through dreams. God has already given direction to his Church through scripture. There was a time after Pentecost and prior to the closing of the canon of scripture where such prophetic dreaming would have been appropriate and even necessary - but the moment the canon closed, such dreams became superfluous.

I therefore do not hestitate to offer verses from scripture that remind us that dreams are, for the most part, empty, and generally come as a result of much activity (as opposed to divinity). I am not saying the dream wasn't from the Lord, it may well have been - but if it was it wasn't for the church. Your particular interpretation, however creative and novel wasn't a part of that dream - so I would be extra careful friend when I tell and retell it, to be certain that I don't interpret it for others. Neither Joseph nor Daniel was great enough to interpret their own dreams...

So I offer words of caution.

Dan
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/6/7 16:59Profile









 Re:

Ah! Popcorn and dann,

I want to put in a good word for dreams too. The Lord has spoken to me several times, through dreams.

Another point to make about dreams. In each of those in the post above, the information was directly relevant to the persons who had the dreams. Although the effect of obedience to the instruction they brought, had an everlasting implication for mankind, it was up to those who had the dream to be obedient to the truth which had been revealed to them.

This could be considered to be a damage limitation exercise (by God, or by us). Or, it is the natural consequence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit - in which there is no longer any need for one lone prophet or 'dreamer' to speak to the whole nation.

It is now, in the same way as the grace of God is available to each individual through Jesus Christ, that each individual to whom God reveals His word, by whatever means, is responsible to obey, on his own behalf.

When I started writing this, I was defending dreams. Now, I see I am suggesting the onus is on you, Popcorn, to be obedient to the Lord's revelation to you. I get the impression you would be headed that way, anyway, but would add this, that often confirmations follow, (when you are fully awake) which help complete the meaning of the revelation and the fulfilment of it - an unfolding of God's will in which to walk.

 2005/6/7 17:11









 Re:

Hello dann,

We were posting at the same time, so I have more to say.

Quote:
and generally come as a result of much activity



I don't know whether you realise or not, but your secular interpretation of dreams is completely rooted in rational philosophy.

There is interpretation of dreams in the Church today, in the same way as there is interpretation of tongues and prophecy. I agree with you on one point, though, as in my previous post, such are not necessarily for even the whole of a local church gathered (except as the edification of one member is bound to impact on all the others, in time).

On the other hand, I was present when a prophecy was given with great confidence by a member of the church I was attending, and it turned out to be relevant for the whole of the UK.

 2005/6/7 17:20
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: dreams

What about Peter's dream in Acts 10?

I also have alot of dreams, some of which I have thought were definitely from the Lord. Also, the probability that I and my daughter would have a dream on the same exact night descrbing Ezekiel 16 is pretty slim. We didn't even know anything about Ezekiel at the time.

I am also very cautious. I never want to be led astray. I would rather not take stock in our dreams but if the Lord is trying to show us something that we would otherwise be oblivious to.... ?

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/6/7 17:23Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:
I don't know whether you realise or not, but your secular interpretation of dreams is completely rooted in rational philosophy.



God bless you.

When I say "generally come as a result of much activity" - I am paraphrasing the NKJV of Eccesiates 5:3 where it says, "For a dream comes through much activity"

I appreciate your zeal.

Dan
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/6/7 17:29Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

moreofHim wrote:
What about Peter's dream in Acts 10?



In my post I did point out that prior to the closing of the canon such revelation is not unheard of nor was it inappropriate.

Grace and peace,

Dan
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/6/7 17:38Profile









 Re: the 'Ravid' dream

Hi dann,

I'm not sure you can use something from Ecclesiastes, a book whose date and authorship are in question, to question the [i]experience[/i] of believers after the New Testament type, just because nothing has been added to scripture for 1900 years. It may be better to take on board that Christians are still spoken to in dreams, just as Peter and Paul were.

When one is asleep, one may be [i]more[/i] vulnerable to the Spirit, for certain types of revelation. Night-time may be one when a normally busy Christian's mind can be moved upon by God, because it is not night to Him, nor does our sleep hinder His Spirit from communicating with our spirits. After all, when one is asleep, one has least control over one's dreams. That's why when God speaks through them, it is kinda unmistakable. If it's 'mistakable', of course one is not in a hurry to attribute the dream to the moving of the Holy Spirit.

 2005/6/7 17:50
Popcorn
Member



Joined: 2005/1/23
Posts: 16


 Re:

I'm so happy to have the Lord Jesus judge it and me and, in the Mighty Name of Jesus, I place both the dream and myself in His hands.

I firmly believe Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Grace and peace to you, too, in Jesus' Name.


_________________
Ricky

 2005/6/7 18:05Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
I'm not sure you can use something from Ecclesiastes, a book whose date and authorship are in question, to question the [i]experience[/i] of believers after the New Testament type...




Thank you Dorcas for sharing your feelings and intuition in this matter.

I appreciate your hesitation, though I do not share it. I am convinced that the bible is divinely authored, and trustworthy. I don't come to this conclusion frivolously, as might be imagined - but I take Paul's instruction to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16 to heart, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"

Paul was speaking about the old testament (the New Testament wasn't fully written at the time, or fully available). Paul's instructions then are good for you and I. The old testament is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Likewise Peter says plainly that it was the "Spirit of Christ" who was speaking through the old testament writers (c.f. 1 Peter 11). Given then that the book of Ecclesiastes was a part of the accepted old testament canon during the time of Christ, and certainly during the time that the new testament was being written - we can lay aside any notion that those old testament books are "questionable."

I likewise admire what Peter had to say about experience verse scripture (2 Peter 1:19). Peter, in describing the voice he heard from heaven while upon the mount of transfiguration with Christ, John, James, Moses and Elijah - says that he has something even more certain than this experience, the prophetic "word" confirmed - that is, old testament (scripture).

Rather than go by "feel" I walk by faith. Jeremiah 17:9 describes the heart as desperately wicked and deceitful - given that this is the word of Christ Himself (as Peter points out) I hesitate to exalt both feelings or personal experience above scripture - and in this case scripture makes a bold case against new revelation to the church.

This is how I understand scripture.

I have had what I believe was a vision from the Lord, and I know others who have as well. I am not saying that these things no longer happen - indeed, by no means do I suggest this. My only concern is that the children of God exercise discernment - that all things be done according to the Spirit -AND- according to scripture.

I have no desire to be contrary, or to stand out as "the guy" who wants to gainsay things just for the sake of gainsaying things :-)

I am by no means an expert in scripture - but I do examine all things under the light of scripture - and feel it is not only good - but even necessary to scrutinize all things thus.

For His glory,

Dan
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/6/8 13:02Profile





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