SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "It is not your hold of Christ that saves you; it is His hold of you."

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: "That Saves You"

I just thought it worth saying that I don't believe that it is the position of any who hold the belief (no pun intended) that we are instructed by God in His word to "hold fast to the Head", and it is our duty to do so in order to abide in Him and therefore be preserved and kept by God and His power - that doing so "saves you" or that in so doing we are in any way "saving ourselves."

It is JESUS who saves us. It is by His blood that we have been redeemed and justified - and it is by His life that we will be "saved."

I just find that the apparent quote that was used as the subject line/title of this thread could potentially be a bit misleading and perhaps mis-characterizing of the opinion of those who disagree...I trust that was not intentional.

I just wanted to go on the record and be very clear as to what it is that I and, I am confident, the brothers that hold a like position, are and are not saying.


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/13 12:30Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1987


 Re: One Way





This is a One Way Road - No flesh permitted -

2 Chronicles 30:12

God by the power of his grace inclined their hearts to a unanimous compliance with God’s and the king’s will. And this is mentioned as the reason of this wonderful change wrought in these men, who had lately been utterly averse from God’s worship, and wholly given up to idolatry. John Wesley

Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart,.... To make them unanimous in this service, hearty and willing to it, to a man, which was owing to the power and efficacy of divine grace. John Gill

He shows the reason why some obey and some mock God's calling, that is, because his Spirit is with the one sort and moves in their heart, and the others are left to themselves. Geneva Study Bible

 2016/10/13 13:01Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Savannah

Savannah,
I do agree that the new heart and will and ability to live pleasing to God and keep His law is God's doing and working in us. I don't deny the doctrine of regeneration.

Please try to hear what we are saying and try not to read into it what you think it is that we are saying.

William didn't deny that the compliance with God's law, etc., was God's gracious working in them...just that there was a humility required first...

Jesus clearly says the same thing...as do James and the other apostles...

I also wish that you would be a bit more kind and relational and personal in the way you present your position...it may even go a long way in earning you a sincere hearing with those that disagree with you.

I must say, you come across much better on the phone than here on the SI discussion board...

Edit: "No flesh permitted" - again, there is this insinuation that we are claiming that anything of the old man is meritorious or, in itself, effectual in God's purpose and glory...which (I reiterate) we are not.

We are simply standing on the plain and clear words of Jesus and the apostles and prophets (and scribes) of God. That is all. When Jesus says: "He who humbles himself..." We believe He means it. When James says: "Humble yourselves...", we understand that there is some duty on our end to do so and we want to obey. When Paul says: "Put on...mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, [and] longsuffering..." - we understand that is an apostolic instruction for us to do something.

Again, it is the grace and life of God that provides all these traits of Christ, but we are commanded to "put them on", nonetheless.

That is, for the most part, what I am saying (and I trust William is as well).

I do not seek to side-step all duty and every command/instruction of scripture by claiming that anything that I so much as will to do and agree with God about (not that willing, in itself, is sufficient for realizing the thing willed - this would be "the flesh") is "the flesh" and forbidden and detestable to God.

What a confusing gospel and God you guys must have...honest. One who instructs you to do things that you have zero part whatsoever in their being done - and which will only be accomplished if God, from "eternity past", has "decreed" and decided that it will be done in you. And if not...well, have fun trying.

And if you are one who will see the will of God come to pass in yourself, regardless of anything about you (including humility and abiding and holding fast) - then God only gives you His commands and instructions as a type of time-waster, because understanding and agreeing are not at all any part of being and doing...so why read your bible at all...?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to follow what it is that I perceive you are saying and follow it to it's logical conclusion.


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/13 13:12Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Forrests,

Quote:
I just thought it worth saying that I don't believe that it is the position of any who hold the belief (no pun intended) that we are instructed by God in His word to "hold fast to the Head", and it is our duty to do so in order to abide in Him and therefore be preserved and kept by God and His power - that doing so "saves you" or that in so doing we are in any way "saving ourselves.


I'm glad for your clarification.

In an earlier post, you had expressed that, "We are not saved by our ability, but through our, in faith, abiding in Him and, --> by faith <-- , holding fast to Him". That statement could have been a source of confusion.

 2016/10/13 13:26Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1987


 Re: the work of God




I type very slowly so I only write what's absolutely necessary.

I can communicate verbally/audiby much better than this method allows.

Now...on the subject of this thread;

I'd emphasize that that humility in any person is the work of God and His grace. Not something one works up from himself "first" as some are implying.

 2016/10/13 13:30Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: yuehan - notice "through" verses "by"

Quote:
by yuehan on 2016/10/13 10:26:04

Forrests,
Quote:
I just thought it worth saying that I don't believe that it is the position of any who hold the belief (no pun intended) that we are instructed by God in His word to "hold fast to the Head", and it is our duty to do so in order to abide in Him and therefore be preserved and kept by God and His power - that doing so "saves you" or that in so doing we are in any way "saving ourselves.


I'm glad for your clarification.

In an earlier post, you had expressed that, "We are not saved by our ability, but through our, in faith, abiding in Him and, --> by faith <-- , holding fast to Him". That statement could have been a source of confusion.



I'm sorry, perhaps I was not clear in my previous comment. Please take note of the difference I make in using the words "by" and "through". Perhaps I am making a distinction that the English language does not, but I see one as the author and originator and the other as a means used.

Again, perhaps this is not a distinction that is actually intrinsic in the words themselves...but I believe one can perceive that I am making this distinction by reading my words.

We are not saved as a result of us "holding fast to the Head", but it is an essential condition to our being finally and eternally "saved" in the end.

Similar to the fact that my car runs by a gasoline engine, through gasoline in the tank.

The engine is the driving force, and the power, and essential to it's being propelled - but without the gasoline in the tank it cannot do it's job.

In a somewhat similar fashion (and it is a metaphor, so it is imperfect and limited in it's usefulness, please don't seek to discredit my position using a metaphor) Jesus is the cause, catalyst, power and driving force in our eventually being eternally "saved" - but without us "holding fast" to, and abiding in, Him - He cannot bring us home.

What I am saying is that it is not our holding fast that saves us, it is Jesus - but our holding fast to Him is required (and commanded in scripture).

Let me know if you would like further clarification.

Edit: I thought of a better metaphor. Jesus is the engine and we are the wheels, our "holding fast" is the driveshaft that connects the wheels to the engine and through which the force and power of the engine is transferred to and effective in the wheels.

That seems more fitting...


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/13 13:41Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Humble Yourselves

Quote:
by savannah on 2016/10/13 10:30:38
I'd emphasize that that humility in any person is the work of God and His grace. Not something one works up from himself "first" as some are implying.



It isn't a "working up" at all, but a "setting low". Scripture clearly tells us to "humble yourself" many times... Is God just messing with us?

There is evidently some sort or level of humility that we can will and do (I'm sure through faith and God's grace) that is in our power to accept/do/assume...

"Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart..."
~ 1 Peter 1:22

They purified their souls...? *They* purified? In what way? Through their obedience to the truth...? That's the flesh...no? Is Peter talking about legalism or 'the works of the flesh' here?

And James:
"Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls."
~ James 1:21

He clearly instructs us to "lay aside" something and "receive with meekness" the "implanted word" which is "able to save your souls"...

There is a lot there, but am I to see the apostle of Jesus Christ telling me to "lay aside" as him telling me that I cannot and I have no part or place in said laying aside? Am I to interpret the apostle instructing me to "receive" as him saying that I cannot receive? Or his specifying what my heart condition is to be in receiving, "with meekness" - am I to take him telling me to "receive with meekness" to mean that I have no part or place in ensuring I do so?

This is confusing indeed.

And notice: "...which is able to save your souls."

Able to save. Either these are regenerated people he is writing to and he is saying that there is the abiding possibility of their souls not being ultimately "saved"; or he is writing to unregenerate people and saying there is in the word of God the ability to save their souls...and this is contingent and incumbent upon their doing what he just told them to do, namely, "receive with meekness the implanted word"...and that as unbelievers!

And I think Peter goes on to make mention of this in the above passage, as he goes on to say:

"...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever..."
~ 1 Peter 1:23

Combine that with what James says and it seems to say that one is saved through the word of God, when he receives it with meekness...

No?


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/13 14:18Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i havnt been able to log in on my ipad for some reason...


we are commanded to be rich in good deeds and when we do is it us doing them


















But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.


paul says nay not i


and i think that all that being said he god gets the credit for every thing not part

 2016/10/13 15:31Profile
StirItUp
Member



Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Thanks Forrest for your efforts ( is that allowed?) 🙂 in clarifying this.

I absolutely agree that our salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There will alway be some mystery to our faith, some areas which God reserves for Himself and therefore I categorically state that I am open to conviction and convincing where my beliefs are perhaps not 100 percent correct according to scripture.

I do believe as a believer there is some work involved. Of course not fleshy works for no flesh shall boast in His presence. Works of faith and dependence on the Holy Spirit. In His infinite wisdom God wants us to co- operate with Him in this new life. We work...as He works in and through us...and we " allow" Him to work through us, for lack of a better description.

Remember Paul's words? I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Was he boasting in his flesh?

God bless,


_________________
William

 2016/10/13 15:34Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: brothagary

Again, it seems that you think there is some place for boasting in a person humbling himself in the love of God through keeping himself low and clinging to Jesus for dear life and thus abiding in Him....

Not so. As a matter of fact, it seems that it is those who believe they have redemption and righteousness, as a thing, irrevocably in themselves, that do not "hold fast" and so instead "wander from the truth" and "turn away from the holy commandment" - as seen below:

************************

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

"Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

- Eze 18:20-32 NKJV
*******************************

Again, there is a lot there, but God speaks of wicked men becoming righteous - so we know this is not the perfect righteousness through perfect keeping of the law that is in mind.

And He says that a righteous person (God calls him righteous, not "self righteous" or "so called righteous" - and there is no reason to interpret it in such a way in the immediate context) may "turn from his righteousness" (which is Christ and walking in Him and by His Spirit)...

Also, in a parallel passage in Ezekiel 33, verse 13, God says:

"When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die."

He trusted in His own righteousness and failed to hold fast to the Head who is his righteousness...and turned away from the holy commandment and he will surely die.


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/10/13 15:54Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy