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 Teaching about saying/doing from John Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress

Moreover, I saw in my dream, that as they went on, Faithful, as he chanced to look on one side,
saw a man whose name was Talkative, walking at a distance beside them; for in this place there
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
was room enough for them all to walk. He was a tall man, and something more comely at a distance
than at hand. To this man Faithful addressed himself in this manner.
FAITHFUL: Friend, whither away? Are you going to the heavenly country?
TALKATIVE: I am going to the same place.
FAITHFUL: That is well; then I hope we shall have your good company?
TALKATIVE: With a very good will, will I be your companion.
FAITHFUL: Come on, then, and let us go together, and let us spend our time in discoursing of
things that are profitable.
TALKATIVE: To talk of things that are good, to me is very acceptable, with you or with any
other; and I am glad that I have met with those that incline to so good a work; for, to speak the
truth, there are but few who care thus to spend their time as they are in their travels, but choose
much rather to be speaking of things to no profit; and this hath been a trouble to me.
FAITHFUL: That is, indeed, a thing to be lamented; for what thing so worthy of the use of the
tongue and mouth of men on earth, as are the things of the God of heaven?
TALKATIVE: I like you wonderful well, for your saying is full of conviction; and I will add,
What thing is so pleasant, and what so profitable, as to talk of the things of God? What things so
pleasant? that is, if a man hath any delight in things that are wonderful. For instance, if a man doth
delight to talk of the history, or the mystery of things; or if a man doth love to talk of miracles,
wonders, or signs, where shall he find things recorded so delightful, and so sweetly penned, as in
the holy Scripture?
FAITHFUL: That is true; but to be profited by such things in our talk, should be our chief
TALKATIVE: That’s it that I said; for to talk of such things is most profitable; for by so doing
a man may get knowledge of many things; as of the vanity of earthly things, and the benefit of
things above. Thus in general; but more particularly, by this a man may learn the necessity of the
new birth, the insufficiency of our works, the need of Christ’s righteousness, etc. Besides, by this
a man may learn what it is to repent, to believe, to pray, to suffer, or the like: by this, also, a man
may learn what are the great promises and consolations of the Gospel, to his own comfort. Farther,
by this a man may learn to refute false opinions, to vindicate the truth, and also to instruct the
FAITHFUL: All this is true; and glad am I to hear these things from you.
TALKATIVE: Alas! the want of this is the cause that so few understand the need of faith, and
the necessity of a work of grace in their soul, in order to eternal life; but ignorantly live in the works
of the law, by which a man can by no means obtain the kingdom of heaven.
FAITHFUL: But, by your leave, heavenly knowledge of these is the gift of God; no man attaineth
to them by human industry, or only by the talk of them.
TALKATIVE: All this I know very well; for a man can receive nothing, except it be given him
from heaven: all is of grace, not of works. I could give you a hundred scriptures for the confirmation
of this.
FAITHFUL: Well, then, said Faithful, what is that one thing that we shall at this time found
our discourse upon?
TALKATIVE: What you will. I will talk of things heavenly, or things earthly; things moral, or
things evangelical; things sacred, or things profane; things past, or things to come; things foreign,
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
or things at home; things more essential, or things circumstantial: provided that all be done to our
FAITHFUL: Now did Faithful begin to wonder; and stepping to Christian, (for he walked all
this while by himself,) he said to him, but softly, What a brave companion have we got! Surely,
this man will make a very excellent pilgrim.
CHRISTIAN: At this Christian modestly smiled, and said, This man, with whom you are so
taken, will beguile with this tongue of his, twenty of them that know him not.
FAITHFUL: Do you know him, then?
CHRISTIAN: Know him? Yes, better than he knows himself.
FAITHFUL: Pray what is he?
CHRISTIAN: His name is Talkative: he dwelleth in our town. I wonder that you should be a
stranger to him, only I consider that our town is large.
FAITHFUL: Whose son is he? And whereabout doth he dwell?
CHRISTIAN: He is the son of one Say-well. He dwelt in Prating-Row; and he is known to all
that are acquainted with him by the name of Talkative of Prating-Row; and, notwithstanding his
fine tongue, he is but a sorry fellow.
FAITHFUL: Well, he seems to be a very pretty man.
CHRISTIAN: That is, to them that have not a thorough acquaintance with him, for he is best
abroad; near home he is ugly enough. Your saying that he is a pretty man, brings to my mind what
I have observed in the work of a painter, whose pictures show best at a distance; but very near,
more unpleasing.
FAITHFUL: But I am ready to think you do but jest, because you smiled.
CHRISTIAN: God forbid that I should jest (though I smiled) in this matter, or that I should
accuse any falsely. I will give you a further discovery of him. This man is for any company, and
for any talk; as he talketh now with you, so will he talk when he is on the ale-bench; and the more
drink he hath in his crown, the more of these things he hath in his mouth. Religion hath no place
in his heart, or house, or conversation; all he hath lieth in his tongue, and his religion is to make a
noise therewith.
FAITHFUL: Say you so? Then am I in this man greatly deceived.
CHRISTIAN: Deceived! you may be sure of it. Remember the proverb, “They say, and do not;”
but the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. Matt. 23:3; 1 Cor. 4:20. He talketh of prayer,
of repentance, of faith, and of the new birth; but he knows but only to talk of them. I have been in
his family, and have observed him both at home and abroad; and I know what I say of him is the
truth. His house is as empty of religion as the white of an egg is of savor. There is there neither
prayer, nor sign of repentance for sin; yea, the brute, in his kind, serves God far better than he. He
is the very stain, reproach, and shame of religion to all that know him, Rom. 2:24,25; it can hardly
have a good word in all that end of the town where he dwells, through him. Thus say the common
people that know him, “A saint abroad, and a devil at home.” His poor family finds it so; he is such
a churl, such a railer at, and so unreasonable with his servants, that they neither know how to do
for or speak to him. Men that have any dealings with him say, It is better to deal with a Turk than
with him, for fairer dealings they shall have at their hands. This Talkative (if it be possible) will
go beyond them, defraud, beguile, and overreach them. Besides, he brings up his sons to follow
his steps; and if he finds in any of them a foolish timorousness, (for so he calls the first appearance
of a tender conscience,) he calls them fools and blockheads, and by no means will employ them in
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
much, or speak to their commendation before others. For my part, I am of opinion that he has, by
his wicked life, caused many to stumble and fall; and will be, if God prevents not, the ruin of many
FAITHFUL: Well, my brother, I am bound to believe you, not only because you say you know
him, but also because, like a Christian, you make your reports of men. For I cannot think that you
speak these things of ill-will, but because it is even so as you say.
CHRISTIAN: Had I known him no more than you, I might, perhaps, have thought of him as at
the first you did; yea, had I received this report at their hands only that are enemies to religion, I
should have thought it had been a slander-a lot that often falls from bad men’s mouths upon good
men’s names and professions. But all these things, yea, and a great many more as bad, of my own
knowledge, I can prove him guilty of. Besides, good men are ashamed of him; they can neither call
him brother nor friend; the very naming of him among them makes them blush, if they know him.
FAITHFUL: Well, I see that saying and doing are two things, and hereafter I shall better observe
this distinction.
CHRISTIAN: They are two things indeed, and are as diverse as are the soul and the body; for,
as the body without the soul is but a dead carcass, so saying, if it be alone, is but a dead carcass
also. The soul of religion is the practical part. “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the
Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted
from the world.” James 1:27; see also verses 22-26. This, Talkative is not aware of; he thinks that
hearing and saying will make a good Christian; and thus he deceiveth his own soul. Hearing is but
as the sowing of the seed; talking is not sufficient to prove that fruit is indeed in the heart and life.
And let us assure ourselves, that at the day of doom men shall be judged according to their fruits.
Matt. 13:23. It will not be said then, Did you believe? but, Were you doers, or talkers only? and
accordingly shall they be judged. The end of the world is compared to our harvest, Matt. 13:30,
and you know men at harvest regard nothing but fruit. Not that any thing can be accepted that is
not of faith; but I speak this to show you how insignificant the profession of Talkative will be at
that day.
FAITHFUL: This brings to my mind that of Moses, by which he describeth the beast that is
clean. Lev. 11; Deut. 14. He is such an one that parteth the hoof, and cheweth the cud; not that
parteth the hoof only, or that cheweth the cud only. The hare cheweth the cud, but yet is unclean,
because he parteth not the hoof. And this truly resembleth Talkative: he cheweth the cud, he seeketh
knowledge; he cheweth upon the word, but he divideth not the hoof. He parteth not with the way
of sinners; but, as the hare, he retaineth the foot of the dog or bear, and therefore he is unclean.
CHRISTIAN: You have spoken, for aught I know, the true gospel sense of these texts. And I
will add another thing: Paul calleth some men, yea, and those great talkers too, sounding brass, and
tinkling cymbals, 1 Cor. 13:1, 3; that is, as he expounds them in another place, things without life
giving sound. 1 Cor. 14:7. Things without life; that is, without the true faith and grace of the gospel;
and consequently, things that shall never be placed in the kingdom of heaven among those that are
the children of life; though their sound, by their talk, be as if it were the tongue or voice of an angel.
FAITHFUL: Well, I was not so fond of his company at first, but I am as sick of it now. What
shall we do to be rid of him?
CHRISTIAN: Take my advice, and do as I bid you, and you shall find that he will soon be sick
of your company too, except God shall touch his heart, and turn it.
FAITHFUL: What would you have me to do?
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
CHRISTIAN: Why, go to him, and enter into some serious discourse about the power of religion;
and ask him plainly, (when he has approved of it, for that he will,) whether this thing be set up in
his heart, house, or conversation.
FAITHFUL: Then Faithful stepped forward again, and said to Talkative, Come, what cheer?
How is it now?
TALKATIVE: Thank you, well: I thought we should have had a great deal of talk by this time.
FAITHFUL: Well, if you will, we will fall to it now; and since you left it with me to state the
question, let it be this: How doth the saving grace of God discover itself when it is in the heart of
TALKATIVE: I perceive, then, that our talk must be about the power of things. Well, it is a
very good question, and I shall be willing to answer you. And take my answer in brief, thus: First,
where the grace of God is in the heart, it causeth there a great outcry against sin. SecondlyFAITHFUL:
Nay, hold; let us consider of one at once. I think you should rather say, it shows
itself by inclining the soul to abhor its sin.
TALKATIVE: Why, what difference is there between crying out against, and abhorring of sin?
FAITHFUL: Oh! a great deal. A man may cry out against sin, of policy; but he cannot abhor
it but by virtue of a godly antipathy against it. I have heard many cry out against sin in the pulpit,
who yet can abide it well enough in the heart, house, and conversation. Gen. 39:15. Joseph’s mistress
cried out with a loud voice, as if she had been very holy; but she would willingly, notwithstanding
that, have committed uncleanness with him. Some cry out against sin, even as the mother cries out
against her child in her lap, when she calleth it slut and naughty girl, and then falls to hugging and
kissing it.
TALKATIVE: You lie at the catch, I perceive.
FAITHFUL: No, not I; I am only for setting things right. But what is the second thing whereby
you would prove a discovery of a work of grace in the heart?
TALKATIVE: Great knowledge of gospel mysteries.
FAITHFUL: This sign should have been first: but, first or last, it is also false; for knowledge,
great knowledge, may be obtained in the mysteries of the Gospel, and yet no work of grace in the
soul. Yea, if a man have all knowledge, he may yet be nothing, and so, consequently, be no child
of God. 1 Cor. 13:2. When Christ said, “Do you know all these things?” and the disciples answered,
Yes, he added, “Blessed are ye if ye do them.” He doth not lay the blessing in the knowing of them,
but in the doing of them. For there is a knowledge that is not attended with doing: “He that knoweth
his Master’s will, and doeth it not.” A man may know like an angel, and yet be no Christian:
therefore your sign of it is not true. Indeed, to know is a thing that pleaseth talkers and boasters;
but to do is that which pleaseth God. Not that the heart can be good without knowledge, for without
that the heart is naught. There are, therefore, two sorts of knowledge, knowledge that resteth in the
bare speculation of things, and knowledge that is accompanied with the grace of faith and love,
which puts a man upon doing even the will of God from the heart: the first of these will serve the
talker; but without the other, the true Christian is not content. “Give me understanding, and I shall
keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.” Psa. 119:34.
TALKATIVE: You lie at the catch again: this is not for edification.
FAITHFUL: Well, if you please, propound another sign how this work of grace discovereth
itself where it is.
TALKATIVE: Not I, for I see we shall not agree.
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
FAITHFUL: Well, if you will not, will you give me leave to do it?
TALKATIVE: You may use your liberty.
FAITHFUL: A work of grace in the soul discovereth itself, either to him that hath it, or to
To him that hath it, thus: It gives him conviction of sin, especially the defilement of his nature,
and the sin of unbelief, for the sake of which he is sure to be damned, if he findeth not mercy at
God’s hand, by faith in Jesus Christ. This sight and sense of things worketh in him sorrow and
shame for sin. Psa. 38:18; Jer. 31:19; John 16:8; Rom. 7:24; Mark 16:16; Gal. 2:16; Rev. 1:6. He
findeth, moreover, revealed in him the Saviour of the world, and the absolute necessity of closing
with him for life; at the which he findeth hungerings and thirstings after him; to which hungerings,
etc., the promise is made. Now, according to the strength or weakness of his faith in his Saviour,
so is his joy and peace, so is his love to holiness, so are his desires to know him more, and also to
serve him in this world. But though, I say, it discovereth itself thus unto him, yet it is but seldom
that he is able to conclude that this is a work of grace; because his corruptions now, and his abused
reason, make his mind to misjudge in this matter: therefore in him that hath this work there is
required a very sound judgment, before he can with steadiness conclude that this is a work of grace.
John 16:9; Gal. 2:15,16; Acts 4:12; Matt. 5:6; Rev. 21:6.
To others it is thus discovered:
1. By an experimental confession of his faith in Christ. 2. By a life answerable to that confession;
to wit, a life of holiness-heart-holiness, family-holiness, (if he hath a family,) and by
conversation-holiness in the world; which in the general teacheth him inwardly to abhor his sin,
and himself for that, in secret; to suppress it in his family, and to promote holiness in the world:
not by talk only, as a hypocrite or talkative person may do, but by a practical subjection in faith
and love to the power of the word. Job 42:5,6; Psa. 50:23; Ezek. 20:43; Matt. 5:8; John 14:15; Rom.
10:10; Ezek. 36:25; Phil. 1:27; 3:17-20. And now, sir, as to this brief description of the work of
grace, and also the discovery of it, if you have aught to object, object; if not, then give me leave to
propound to you a second question.
TALKATIVE: Nay, my part is not now to object, but to hear; let me, therefore, have your
second question.
FAITHFUL: It is this: Do you experience this first part of the description of it; and doth your
life and conversation testify the same? Or standeth your religion in word or tongue, and not in deed
and truth? Pray, if you incline to answer me in this, say no more than you know the God above will
say Amen to, and also nothing but what your conscience can justify you in; for not he that
commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. Besides, to say I am thus and
thus, when my conversation, and all my neighbors, tell me I lie, is great wickedness.
Then Talkative at first began to blush; but, recovering himself, thus he replied: You come now
to experience, to conscience, and to God; and to appeal to him for justification of what is spoken.
This kind of discourse I did not expect; nor am I disposed to give an answer to such questions,
because I count not myself bound thereto, unless you take upon you to be a catechiser; and though
you should so do, yet I may refuse to make you my judge. But I pray, will you tell me why you ask
me such questions?
FAITHFUL: Because I saw you forward to talk, and because I knew not that you had aught
else but notion. Besides, to tell you all the truth, I have heard of you that you are a man whose
religion lies in talk, and that your conversation gives this your mouth-profession the lie. They say
Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan
you are a spot among Christians, and that religion fareth the worse for your ungodly conversation;
that some have already stumbled at your wicked ways, and that more are in danger of being destroyed
thereby: your religion, and an ale-house, and covetousness, and uncleanness, and swearing, and
lying, and vain company-keeping, etc., will stand together. The proverb is true of you which is said
of a harlot, to wit, “That she is a shame to all women:” so are you a shame to all professors.
TALKATIVE: Since you are so ready to take up reports, and to judge so rashly as you do, I
cannot but conclude you are some peevish or melancholy man, not fit to be discoursed with; and
so adieu.
Then up came Christian, and said to his brother, I told you how it would happen; your words
and his lusts could not agree. He had rather leave your company than reform his life. But he is
gone, as I said: let him go; the loss is no man’s but his own. He has saved us the trouble of going
from him; for he continuing (as I suppose he will do) as he is, would have been but a blot in our
company: besides, the apostle says, “From such withdraw thyself.”
FAITHFUL: But I am glad we had this little discourse with him; it may happen that he will
think of it again: however, I have dealt plainly with him, and so am clear of his blood if he perisheth.
CHRISTIAN: You did well to talk so plainly to him as you did. There is but little of this faithful
dealing with men now-a-days, and that makes religion to stink so in the nostrils of many as it doth;
for they are these talkative fools, whose religion is only in word, and who are debauched and vain
in their conversation, that (being so much admitted into the fellowship of the godly) do puzzle the
world, blemish Christianity, and grieve the sincere. I wish that all men would deal with such as
you have done; then should they either be made more conformable to religion, or the company of
saints would be too hot for them. Then did Faithful say,
“How Talkative at first lifts up his plumes!
How bravely doth he speak! How he presumes
To drive down all before him! But so soon
As Faithful talks of heart-work, like the moon
That’s past the full, into the wane he goes;
And so will all but he that heart-work know.”
Thus they went on, talking of what they had seen by the way, and so made that way easy, which
would otherwise no doubt have been tedious to them, for now they went through a wilderness.

 2016/9/14 11:57

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: Teaching about saying/doing from John Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress

Oh my! This is so important and challenging. So much easier to talk than do.
From the post:"Do you experience this first part of the description of it; and doth your
life and conversation testify the same? Or standeth your religion in word or tongue, and not in deed
and truth"

Help me Lord, to live the truth, not only recite it.


 2016/9/14 12:51Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1967

 Re: Teaching about saying/doing from John Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress


Thanks for posting this from Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress!

The Proverbs say, "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin."

Leave it to Bunyan, not Beaver!

I must copy this quote from this discourse and paste it in the thread on Heart Work. May that thread compliment this one, and continue where Faithful left off with Talkative.

Then did Faithful say,
“How Talkative at first lifts up his plumes!
How bravely doth he speak! How he presumes
To drive down all before him! But so soon
As Faithful talks of heart-work, like the moon
That’s past the full, into the wane he goes;
And so will all but he that heart-work know.”

 2016/9/14 18:59Profile

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