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| Re: | | If a person is moved by the Holy Spirit to pray for a lame person to walk, so he should pray for a lame person. Still today God heals sick ones and makes miracles. The greatest miracle is when a sinner person repents his sins and believe in the Lord Jesus.
Although God makes miracles and heals sick ones today, it doesn't mean that all miracles are done by the power of God. Remember what Jesus said, when He stated:
Matthew 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity |
| 2016/9/7 2:03 | | brothagary Member
Joined: 2011/10/23 Posts: 2556
| Re: Can believers do greater works than Jesus did? | | Do we have any historical evidence that any Christian did greater works then Jesus in the context of exactly like Jesus only better ..
Apart from benni Hinn !! |
| 2016/9/7 4:51 | Profile | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Quote:
Many people say that when God does - through us - greater works than Jesus did, it is God who does the greater works than we, and therefore we are capable of doing greater works than Jesus because God does the works through us. This argument, too, is proven wrong by the truth manifested in the Bible.
The Bible teaches us that Jesus did not do anything by His own power. Instead, Father God did all the works through Him, and Jesus' prayers were heard because of His fear (respect) of God, and Jesus learned obedience from His suffering. Because Jesus was obedient to the Father, the Father did the Father's works through Jesus. If someone believes that he or she is capable of doing greater works than Jesus, they also declare - often unknowingly and due to their lack of understanding - that they are more obedient than Jesus and that their faith and confidence in God is greater than that of Jesus. God does God's works through faith and obedience, and if someone believes that they are capable of doing works that are greater than those by Jesus, they place themselves in a position where they would be more obedient than Jesus and where their faith and confidence in God would be greater than those of Jesus; God does God's works through faith and obedience created by God.
Not a single believer cannot have greater faith than Jesus had, and not a single believer can have greater confidence in God than Jesus had, and not a single believer can be more obedient than Jesus, and not a single believer can have faith that is greater than God (Jesus). Works of faith are works that take place through faith, and the truth is clear as day; not a single believer can have greater faith than Our Lord Jesus Christ. In regard to everything mentioned above, and to the truth shared with us through the Bible in full, it is evident that greater works cannot be greater in regard to quality (greater in power), but greater in number because not a single believer can have greater faith and obedience than Jesus. Some believers may have naively believed the false teaching of works greater than those by Jesus because they have relied on their own wisdom when reading about this subject in the Bible, only focusing on one verse, and have not read the Bible spiritually and compared th....
You just copy and pasted this from your website article.
Do you have any new thoughts on this? _________________ Lisa
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| 2016/9/7 8:13 | Profile |
| Re: | | Lysa:
The text on my website is my thoughts and how I believe and understand what the Bible teaches.
In the Greek original text, John 14:12 has the word meidzon, which means greater, more extensive and greater in number. Which of these meanings is correct and means what Jesus meant? The solution is really simple: Jesus healed the sick, cast out evil spirits, raised the dead back to life, performed food miracles, and the forces of nature were subordinate to Him. When we study the New Testament, all the way from Acts to the Book of Revelation, we can see that not a single Apostle or anyone else in the Early Church did works greater in power than what Jesus did, but they were greater in number and extent than those done by Jesus. Jesus did His works for three years, but the Apostles and other believers did their work for a much longer period of time. People were healed through the believers in the Early Church, and evil spirits were cast out and dead people were raised back to life; these are exactly the same works that were done through Jesus, they only were greater in number and extent. The Bible does not witness of any works through the disciples, which would have been greater in power than what Jesus did. Therefore, it is obvious that greater in number or extent is correct, not greater in power.
Bible teaching is not only words and sentences or meanings of the original text, but it of course is all that, too. We should understand Bible teaching in a spiritually correct way and understand what the Bible in full teaches about a subject, and we also need to understand the context of the teaching. In regard to what the Bible in full teaches about the present subject, it is crystal clear that people are not capable of doing works that are greater in power than those done by Almighty God.
Isa 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The Bible teaches us that people want to be like God because they are affected by satan's sin. When someone teaches that they are capable of doing greater works than Jesus, they are spreading a satanic lie and they are mocking God because sin and satan would like to be greater than God and to make people believe that they are capable of doing greater works than God.
John 13: 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy (makarios - blessed, happy) are ye if ye do them.
The Bible teaches us that no servant can be greater than their master. By washing the feet of the disciples, the Lord Jesus set an example to us of how we should serve others. After washing the feet, Jesus said that no servant is greater than his master, and no messenger is greater than the one who sent him. After that, Jesus said that if you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. By this, Jesus meant that everything that we do in service to God must be done so that we know and understand that we cannot be greater than our Lord Jesus Christ. If we understand this and serve God, knowing that we cannot be greater than our Lord Jesus Christ, we are blessed.
Our Lord Jesus Christ knew that in the church, a false teaching would exist, arguing that we are capable of doing works that are greater than those of Jesus, and that is why Jesus also taught that we cannot be greater than our Master. If we think that we can do works that are greater than those of Jesus, we have placed ourselves in a position which is equal of assuming that we can be greater than our Lord, and if that happens, we are not blessed because Jesus says so in the verse above.
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| 2016/9/7 8:19 | | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Quote:
If a person is moved by the Holy Spirit to pray for a lame person to walk, so he should pray for a lame person. Still today God heals sick ones and makes miracles. The greatest miracle is when a sinner person repents his sins and believe in the Lord Jesus.
Although God makes miracles and heals sick ones today, it doesn't mean that all miracles are done by the power of God. Remember what Jesus said, when He stated:
Matthew 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Thank you for not copy and pasting.
Now you seem to be bouncing around and I'm not trying to pick on you but this verse is an entire different subject than the original post (OP) of us not being able to greater works.
Through some of the excellent responses to the OP, have you now changed your mind about greater works?
God bless, Lisa _________________ Lisa
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| 2016/9/7 8:22 | Profile | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Your response to me just now? You copied and pasted AGAIN! LOL
We have been through this with other people over the years, you are not going to be worth your salt and people are going to stop responding to you if you can't type an original rebuttal.
_________________ Lisa
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| 2016/9/7 8:25 | Profile | dolfan Member
Joined: 2011/8/23 Posts: 1727 Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama
| Re: | | There is no real argument that "greater works" is not "greater number" or "greater extent" in reach, scope, time. I rather like the notion myself. Jesus taught that His works in His people will multiply through generations? Sign me up.
What does impress me, though, is that we hold this treasure in earthen vessels, that we are not God, that we have not seen Him but believe --- and that He does this through us anyway. In my heart, that is "greater". His great mercies. His great love. His great patience. His great refusal to not have us transformed into His image.
Greater! _________________ Tim
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| 2016/9/7 8:35 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." John 14:12
Jesus's context is singular. He seems to be talking about individuals, whether you believe he is talking about magnitude or otherwise.
Elijah and Elisha raised the dead; Elijah called fire from heaven and Elisha made metal float.
Jesus seemed to be upset that his disciples woke him up in a panic to calm the stormy sea. He accused them of having little faith. I think he expected them to deal with the sea.
Peter had more men converted in one sermon than was recorded in all of Jesus's ministry.
To Tim's point, which is greater: a boy, born in riches, fed the best diets, provided with the best trainers money can buy and grows up to be a world class sprinter, or a boy, born in dire poverty, with no resources other than the for basic survival, who runs barefoot in the dirt but drives himself to become a world class sprinter?
We are extremely weak and flawed vessels. The fact that Jesus can do anything through us at all is amazing in and of itself.
But I say again, to the extent we are not individually doing greater works is our fault, not His.
_________________ Todd
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| 2016/9/7 10:18 | Profile | ThyKingCome Member
Joined: 2011/4/19 Posts: 169 Southern CA
| Re: | | Hello precious saints -
I was just discussing this verse with a brother the other day because he was planning to preach on these very passages in the coming weeks. I believe we get our eyes fixed on the wrong emphasis in the passage. We tend to incline our minds to the thought of "greater works" and immediately chalk ourselves up to the possibility of either doing "greater works in quality" or "greater works in quantity" than Jesus in His earthly ministry. This I believe is not what Jesus intended for us to do with these passages. These two "views" is how I think the disciples would have concluded before Acts 2. I believe the context Jesus was setting is the power of prayer and the further work of intercession and headship He would be granted when He went to the Father. When Jesus went to the Father, He didn't disappear or leave us orphans, but rather He was promoted to a place of excellent glory and superior mediation as our Great High Priest who reigns from Heaven. As we look at this statement through the lens of the book of Hebrews, it makes sense that Jesus was indicating that "because He was going to the Father" He would be able to accomplish even more though His Body, while He as the Head, the Captain of our Salvation at the helm, and Great High Priest in Heaven was EVER LIVING TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US. In other words, Jesus' ministry was not concluded, but rather enhanced and empowered by the power of an endless life. The weight of this scripture lies in His words "because I go to my Father". His graduated role and place of authority grants Jesus the means to accomplish greater works in and through His body, the Church.
May we lay hold of this reality to the fullest that Christ may do greater works in and through each of us as we avail ourselves to the God/Man Christ Jesus who is seated on the Throne of the Universe!
Blessings, _________________ Brother Kevin
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| 2016/9/7 10:48 | Profile | Heydave Member
Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: | | Kevin,
I think you are correct. I went back and read through that chapter and the context is all about Jesus going to be with the Father, which includes this verse "because I go to the Father.."
So, what are the greater works that Jesus has done through believers since He went to His Father?
Edit: It's not about us! _________________ Dave
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| 2016/9/7 11:03 | Profile |
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