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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Pretrib Rapture???

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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3233
Texas

 Re:

Thanks J and Tim, I know some are very passionate about things like this, and I did not mean to water anything down, but I'm just a very simple thinker, that's just the way God made me.


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Mr. Bill

 2016/8/23 15:33Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1067
Germany NRW

 Re: The Pretrib Rapture???

I wonder if we can conclude this debate before the rapture takes place, be it pre-post or midtrib.

 2016/8/23 16:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by narrowpath on 2016/8/23 16:05:40

I wonder if we can conclude this debate before the rapture takes place, be it pre-post or midtrib.




You never know, we may have to pray the Lord to tarry before we meet Him in the air. ;-)

Then again, the Bible says He can come at any moment.

 2016/8/23 16:17









 Re:

Anything that causes believers not to "stay awake", be ready, & be prepared to endure tribulation into the end is potentially problematic. Corrie Ten Boom often spoke of how the Pre-Trib Secret rapture theory crippled those in WW2. Theologically/Eschatologically/Philosophically, it's called "Escapism".

I agree with previous posters that Joe Schimmel's "Left Behind or Led Astray?" Does the best job of explaining & showing this theological error's founders, history, etc.

And I agree with JFW that we are seeing, at the very least, the pre-alignments in the Middle East & in the world (Biblical prophecy is thoroughly Jerusalem, then Israel, then Middle East, then to the rest of the world - centric. In that order).

I remember getting radically saved, spending 10-12+ hours sometimes a day reading the scriptures (I was locked up - it was God's grace & plan to give me time to grow in & read/study the scriptures & bathe in the Word of God early on) & thinking after having read the whole Bible through and through - "Secret Pre-Trib Rapture? Where on earth do they get that?" Like most theological errors, it comes from not having a thorough, wholistic, expositional, contextual understanding of the "full counsel of the Word of Godl on the subject & just having "ISO-proof text" (eisogesis) arguments out of context by certain "enlightened ones" who "found it" & then a huge echo chamber somehow carried it down through the ages. That charismatic liberal guy in Europe (defrocked for impropriety) started it, maybe adopted from a South American Jesuit priest, & then John Nelson Darby pontificated it further, tried to use it to exercise control over the Plymouth brethren movement & split the movement drawing disciples after himself, then CI Schofield's bible commentary notes really propagated it as scripture because it was written in scripture (at the bottom notes, but people wrongly treat it as "Bible"), and on and on. Of course Tim Lahaye & Jerry Jenkins most recently put it on the map worldwide in the last couple decades. Kirk Cameron, who starred in the original films, changed to Post-Trib after watching & listening to Joel Schimmel's teaching on the subject. It is quintessential "escapism". I know this experientially too from discussions with friends and close family over the subject & "why" they won't disbelieve it naturally when shown the clear passages. It's also important to note that it's almost entirely a Western doctrine. Similarly to Replacement theology, a metaphorical millineaum, and other mostly western doctrines.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/23 16:30
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Jeff, you mentioned Kirk Cameron was persuaded to believe post trib. That is very interesting. Did Schimmel say so or was Cameron brave enough to say it for himself?! :)


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Tim

 2016/8/23 16:46Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Bill

Quote:
by MrBillPro on 2016/8/23 11:46:08

I guess I'll ask the simple question, Post-Trib or Pre-Trib, does it really matter if ultimately we have accepted Christ into our lives and headed to Heaven? Personally speaking, the way the world is today, I sometimes wonder if we're in the Tribulation right now.



"Left Behind or Led Astray" also seeks to answer this...but the short answer is that in warning His disciples about the coming times and tribulations, Jesus cautions. "See to it that no one misleads you," and "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many."

He (Joe Schimmel) shows quote after quote of Christian pastors and believers in general saying that if Jesus allows the church to go through the great tribulation that He is evil and dishonest and a wife-beater and that the "blessed hope" becomes the "blasted hope"...

It seems that many will be rocked if they do live to see anti-christ and may just fall away because they have believed a lie.

I'm not saying all...but perhaps many...


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~ Forrest

 2016/8/23 17:09Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Anyone who labels the "blessed hope" of Titus 2:13 as a pretrib rapture never tried to understand the phrase. It is sheer invention by men and not the Holy Spirit to conclude that Titus 2:13 refers to a pretrib rapture. Let us all rest assured that His coming will be blessed to us who love Him and seek Him in truth.

Only Americans who rate blessedness by our own righteousness and success could devalue the blessedness of Christ's return by the suffering of tribulation first.


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Tim

 2016/8/23 17:29Profile









 Re:

Matthew 24:29-31New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Glorious Return
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [a]the sky, and the powers of [b]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [c]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Corithians 15:51-52

Behold I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imoerishable and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonuans 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and we shall always be with the Lord.

_______________________________________

Brothers I ask your forgiveness as I am theologically challenged. I mean compared to people like brother Jeff and brother Julius I am a spiritual pynmy. So please forgive me if I stick to the simple written word of God and pose this question.

Are the verses above describing one resurrection event for two separate resurrection events.

I pose this question to my betters in this forum.


Submitted respectfully.

 2016/8/23 17:55









 Re:

Cameron came out & boldly admitted himself & actually shares it publicly and advocates for and recommends Schimmel's video teaching on the subject. You can probably find it on YouTube I bet

 2016/8/23 18:25









 Re: Official DVD teaching trailer with Cameron in it

Here is the official YouTube DVD trailer on the teaching that has Kirk in it himself, & Ray Comfort, Joel Richardson, quotes from Charles Spurgeon & George Mueller, etc.

https://youtu.be/N9iRT91_pyo

 2016/8/23 18:30





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