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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Mark of the Beast

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watchnpray
Member



Joined: 2016/5/16
Posts: 37


 Re:

Brethren, I’ve learnt a lot from your posts! (I’m not rusty on the Bible myself but it’s both humbling and motivating to realize that there are believers far more erudite than I when it comes to Scriptural exegesis/hermeneutics.) So, awesome job, you guys! And, I’ll make a point of following up on the links provided, so thanks, Bro. Greg, et al.

Anyway, after going over all y’all said, I’ve got to admit that I find the view advanced in the Fowler excerpt on the nature of the mark (courtesy of Julius) most convincing (although Jeff’s undoubted scholarship is quite compelling in its own right); hopefully, Mr. Fowler elaborates in his eBook on the particular form(s) that mark takes, but we shall see. Again, thank you, and God bless.



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Xavier

 2016/8/21 15:44Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: The Mark of the Beast





"Greetings, brethren. Here's the vexing conundrum: what is the Mark of the Beast?"

When you have the time, give this some thought;

https://youtu.be/H4Kaa46VOHU

 2016/8/21 16:19Profile









 Re:

watchnpray,

Thank you for your kind remarks and may the Lord bless you in your study of the book of Revelation. It is a fascinating study which is just as relevant today as it was in the Early Church.

 2016/8/21 16:39









 Re:

Watchnpray,
Thank you for your gracious words (probably most undeserved from me those you kindly said towards me), but I pose the same question to you for thought/consideration/response:

If the mark is already, and always has been, in place NOW, then how are you personally "unable to buy or sell save the mark"? Are you not able to hold down a job and operate at Wal-Mart, local flea/produce markets, the local shopping mall, etc.? In fact, this type situation wasn't even in place in the divided old city of Jerusalem when I went a couple months ago), much less America, anywhere else in the west, it's not so in Nairobi, Kenya, & in fact my dear brother/friend who leads a HUGE network of house churches in The hardest country of persecution in the Middle East & I were emailing back & forth this morning & he is about to go into another ME country to start a new group! But they don't have any mark? And they can go buy and sell just fine? They aren't starving or having to farm & garden to eat (or be fed by sparrows)? You could say that's somehow metaphorically/symbolically true in North Korea, but that's hardly "no man" in "all the world". That's the problem (& danger) IMHO once we start down the road of not reading plain texts as they are and hyper-allegorizing everything in the world. Some things are "allegorical" in scripture and it is usually quite plain and obvious to see (obviously, a real "7-headed beast with 10 horns" isn't going to come up literally out of the midst of the Mediterranean Sea) for a "common sense rational literalism" student of the Word who compares scripture with scripture in context. Eventually, nothing means anything it says almost without "their" interpretation, which is often built on a foundation of a house of cards of ISO-proof text arguments that simple context would explain & show to be false. That's the same way this guy ends up explaining away Romans 11, & undoubtedly many other things. You need "his" special enlightened interpretations to get there. This is how the error of "Pretribukational Dispensationalism" came about and prospered for decades now. So how does the mark manifest its buying and selling control over you and your life at this time? Not persecution (I have had that, almost lost a job but God protected me, lost customers, etc.), but actually "no man can buy or sell save the mark". What does that look like in your life?
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/21 16:51
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Jeff-

I understand the buying/selling thing is difficult. But aren't there all sorts of difficult things in the book of Rev? Like stars falling to the earth; locusts with long hair and woman's faces coming out of a bottomless pit; etc etc etc.

I appreciate your study on this topic and I have learned a lot from your posts. But on what basis is the buying/selling issue literal, and every other obviously apocalyptic piece of imagery not literal? Why must the mark of the beast be a literal tattoo or chip, as opposed to some spiritual message?

I really don't think we have any choice when it comes to this book but to follow hard after Jesus, put our trust only in him, and then wait and see what happens. If we do the former we will be ready for the latter.


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Todd

 2016/8/21 17:31Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: literal

Jas 3:15
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Why would God leave us to an understanding of the mark of the beast that allows for earthly sensual and devilish interpretations? To go any other route than literal leaves this passage open to a myriad of interpretations most of which are obscure in nature and lead to unhealthy thought patterns where there is no real peace and soundness of mind. The fact that we can for now buy and sell freely without any kind of out word identifier is in itself evidence that the mark has not yet been instituted, at least as far as I can see, I mean the store clerk has never asked to see my hand or forehead for proof that I have a right to purchase anything yet, basically they just want the money, and I've heard all the money arguments too but basically it all lacks teeth since there is no identifier in the hand or forehead "specific".

I will say this, all you guys are really a ton smarter than me when it comes to study and knowledge, as I read through everything and did some follow up on links I have to admit I felt a little intimidated and overwhelmed by that amount of reading material, had to take a nap in between it all :)

Blessings Brothers


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D.Miller

 2016/8/21 18:35Profile









 Re:

Many Christians through the centuries have been "marked" by their governments as people not to assist or help in any way.

Those who have not been identified as Christians are able to buy and sell. They don't have the "mark of Christ". Satan's counterfeit is the "mark of the beast".

Even scripture tells Christians to "mark" (identify) certain people.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; AND AVOID THEM.

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, AND MARK THEM which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

 2016/8/21 19:03









 The Mark of God or the Mark of the Beast

Part 1 and 2 of "The Mark of God or the Mark of the Beast"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12041

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12042

 2016/8/21 19:09









 Re:

On what basis? Common sense rational literalism & context. We know a real beast with ten horns isn't rising out of the sea. But was Jesus real or just a metaphor? What about the cross? Or what about a bodily resurrection? Paul dealt with that head on cause the gnostic heresies already arose in his day. We know, I believe, when we just read the Word at face value. Sure, some things are more complex or require more study than others, but what I see very often is taking plain spoken scriptures allegorized & explained away. This is DANGEROUS. So what we must do is look at the WHOLE counsel of scripture, context when we look at passages of scripture, & not leave our brain in the garbage & think we need some "enlightened" interpreters to tell us "what the verse really means" all the time. What about the passages of the mark of the beast in their context make you think it's allegorical? Not only that, but If it's being played out now, what do you with the clear plain passages connected to it about the false prophet and the beast? And then how do you reconcile a "now" timeline of those same actors with Revelation 19-22? Clearly the great white throne judgement isn't allegorical & it follows it immediately. And also, if it's being played out now, what does that look like in your life? And if it's allegorical - for what? Nothing at all? Anything we want to imagine? Everything? This is why I feel it's so dangerous. And these crowds of hyper-allegorizers also violate the plain reading of other texts. Their favorite ones to explain away - like Romans 11. But you can't do that without eisogesis & text/context mutulation.

 2016/8/21 21:27
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Fowler and the resurrection

/Fowler who is being promoted here on a regular basis espouses a spiritual resurrection with NO physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ at all. Thus they promote another jesus, an anti-Christ as 1 John 4 points out./

Are there any actual quotes or links that one can look at that have Fowler promoting no bodily resurrection of Jesus?


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David Winter

 2016/8/21 21:29Profile





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