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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Mark of the Beast

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 Re:

I don't know that I would necessarily disagree with that Julius. Although I don't think that absolutizes it where something about the man couldn't equal the real number 666. But am certainly ok with the interpretation as laid out, potentially, either way.

I don't know if James Fowler is a complete historicist/preterist or a futurist, so I may not have a problem with what is said here, but may with where he may be trying to take it. Something's are symbolic, especially in the apocalyptic & prophetic texts. However, when one uses that to later over-allegorize everything, that's where I have a serious issue with it. Not saying he was, or is, or later does that, but just honest about what my cautionary alarms ring on those type things.

I know a lot of false religions are anti-Christ's, but none fit the description laid out in 1 John & elsewhere like Islam. None. Fits like a glove. And the fact is, Islm wasn't around at the generation of Revelation, so again, on a number of scriptural points I have no problem Agreeing that some things are allegorical symbology, but not all. Usually immediate & surrounding context & other scriptures clear up which is which. And a rational literalism of common sense. I know there's a real satan, but not a real physical beast that literally will rise up out of the Mediterranean. That's what I mean by that. Anyways,
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/21 2:18









 Re:

I think it's ironic when people say that an Islamic Antichrist theory is "current event newspaper exegesis" (without studying out the history, scholars, scriptures & all the gaps it fills & fits perfectly), but Matthew Henry's commentary isn't (since the pope was the easy target of the day). I think he is right in principle, but not application. So in regards to the "many anti-Christ's" & the normal seperation of a believer from the world, yes. But for the eschatological Final literal fulfillment of THE "son of perdition" & for it always being "the mark of the beast" spoken of in scripture by which no man can buy or sell, Save the mark? No. In fact, I think that's ridiculous eisogesis. If that's true, then either you, Julius, have taken the mark of the beast, or can't hold a job at all in society as a true believer. And every believer since 70 AD? That's nonsensical (& almost exclusive to the point of "cultish" really if you think about it). That will be the case at some point at the end, but most definitely had not been true of all believers through all ages since 70 AD. No way.

 2016/8/21 2:26









 Re:

Philip/ Christinyou

Thank you, what you wrote to me is true. Must not feed
the delusion of some who frequent this place.

Many religious folk are of the same ilk as you wrote about. They believe everything and anything written by religious spirits, utterly absent of the anointing or presence of the Holy Spirit guiding them.
Sad that you can read and study the Bible and be so misled.
Religious pride is a killer.

 2016/8/21 8:48
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
You people know nothing at all. The mark already occurred
on July 12 70 A.D. Subsequent events in history are only a
spiritual illusion of what already transpired eons ago.
Therefore when reading prophetic writings in the Bible
remember people that its all spiritual, nothing is real
in the sense of time and space as we know it.
You may be wondering how I am aware of these deep deep truths and I am wondering that as well.


Lighten up Greg, was just kidding. Or is humor not allowed here?

(as you can see,my whole post was rather ludicrous. And the worse part is some people will actually believe it)


Brother,

I laughed the first time I read your post and then looked back and forth in my living room and thought, "should I be laughing?" and then had to read it again just to make sure I was free to laugh. In these last days we never know.

God bless your humor,
Lisa

PS: Maybe for any us wanting to do this, we should put in the subject line put "caution: humor." :) :) :)


_________________
Lisa

 2016/8/21 8:55Profile









 Re:

Thanks Lysa.

Lord bless you too!

 2016/8/21 9:07









 Re:

Quote:
by jeffmar1130 on 2016/8/21 2:18:43

I don't know that I would necessarily disagree with that Julius. Although I don't think that absolutizes it where something about the man couldn't equal the real number 666. But am certainly ok with the interpretation as laid out, potentially, either way.

I don't know if James Fowler is a complete historicist/preterist or a futurist, so I may not have a problem with what is said here, but may with where he may be trying to take it.



No, he is not a Preterist, Futurist or Historicist.

But the subject is about 666, the mark of the beast, which is the number of man, not Jim or Matthew Henry, (though, I do agree with both of them).

But, in case you are interested, he believes in the Christocentric-Triumphalist intepretation of Revelation because it seems to provide the best consistency with the interpretation of the rest of the Scriptures. I agree with his view.

Page 9 and10 of his Revelation series.
http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/RevelationCommEbook.pdf

 2016/8/21 9:56









 Re:

Jim Fowler said this baloney:

"The physical Israel of the Old Testament represented a people "set apart" to function as intended, but they failed to thus function because of unbelief and disobedience (Heb. 3:16-4:6). By the resurrection of Jesus all Christians become the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16; Rom. 9:6); people "set apart" to function as intended; people who can collectively be called "Israel" because we have fought with God, surrendered to God and been conquered by God, spiritually.

The resurrection gives us an eternal perspective of who the people of Israel really are."

This statement above alone is a massive satainc falsehood.

and Fowler also pontificated:

ESCHATOLOGY. When the resurrection-dynamic of Jesus Christ is misunderstood, then the consideration of "last things" often degenerates into mere speculative "futurism," with their voluminous linear time-lines and charts."

When Christians understand the resurrection, then the consideration of "last things", i.e. eschatology, is not "utopianism." By the resurrection of Jesus Christ, God has established the "last things", the "last days". Jesus Christ is the "first and the last", the "alpha and the omega", the Creator and the End. All that God has designed for man is inaugurated and realized in Jesus Christ, and that by the resurrection.

Flower who is being promoted here on a regular basis espouses a spiritual resurrection with NO physical and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ at all. Thus they promote another jesus, an anti-Christ as 1 John 4 points out.

 2016/8/21 11:23









 Re:

Julius,
I am saying that if someone believes the mark of the beast is past (or throughout, but already instituted - which again is ridiculous & illogical unless you just can't find a job or feed your family from shopping at the store because of your radical faith Julius - which you did not address?), they must believe the beast (antichrist) of whom the mark is named is past, or allegorize/metaphoricalize & explain away the "son of perdition" & "man of lawlessness" altogether . That is by definition a preterist/historicist position, call it what you want. You can't reconcile all the related passages otherwise (without some serious exegetical errors IMHO). I understand what's inferred and meant by "triumphalism". I would rather guess a more accurate term of that belief is likely "Christo-PLATONIC Triumphalism" whose basis of allegorization/metaphoricalization stems from none other than the cultural Greek Philosophy of Plato, & was carried down and almost worshipped by Augustine (& Origen), & then carried on by Luther & Calvin, & others. I believe in a plain reading of scripture & a Christicentric Cruciform Apocalypticism (since we are getting technical & using all the big Scrabble bonus words 😊). This teaches from the scriptures that it will continue to steadily get much worse on the earth overall UNTIL Christ returns & then it will Get MUCH better when Christ returns. Triumphalism tries to stress that it is better NOW. Well, it is in the sense that the Lord's salvation & spirit is available to us now through the new birth & have a taste/deposit of the kingdom now (but not its fullness which comes when Christ comes and establishes it in its fullness in the earth), but the earth & its inhabitants are & will continue to "wax worse and worse" until Christ returns. And Sorry, but Nero, the early Pope, Titus, Antiochus may very well be classified as part of the league of "many anti-Christ's" John speaks of, but the scriptures are clear in Daniel, Ezekiel, Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, Paul in 1 Thessalonians, John in Revelation, etc. that there is an end time, eschatological, apocalyptic "Son of perdition", "man of lawlessness", beast, Gog of Magog, etc. who leads the "whole world (& I don't think that term must mean every single individual on the planet to include Eskimos, island aborigines, etc. by the way)" astray & captive to his system to trade. To explain away the actual fulfillment of this in one man at the time of the end in the "time of Jacob's trouble" (known as "the great tribulation", "such as there never has been, NOR EVER WILL BE AGAIN") as already fulfilled or some atherial symbolic metaphorical time requires eisogesis & "exegetical gymnastics" (butchering the text, using "ISO-proof texts" out of their greater context, etc.). And I can list a stack of respected commentators & Bible scholars/preachers throughout history who hold to this view that I am a believer of. But I know there are respected men in history who hold to all kinds of eschatology. If you really study & research it & staying to the scriptures (all of them), & context it's hard to believe a lot of it though. And if you research their view closely, where they came up with it, walk down the corridor of the "echo-chamber" of who they read/followed, it "usually" leads you back mainly to Augustine, who was a big time Plato fan. He or Origen, which held views almost one and the same said something like Plato was as close to heaven as you can get without being Christian. As a former Philosophy (Greek) Minor before conversion, I know how ridiculous (& Undiscerning) that statement is. And the rivers of theology that flowed from Augustine down in so many areas (the "fruit of the tree", you know what the tree actually sooner or later actually produces, by which Jesus told us a false teaching can be recognized), was so rotten to the core. This is the well-spring from which so many other theological & doxology/orthopraxy errors stemmed. Including theology that was used to murder millions upon millions as self-proclaimed "instruments of God's judgement" delusionally down through the millinea. This is also the strain of theology, eschatology, hermeneutical approach which explains away plain passages of scripture like Romans 11 with what can only accurately be defined as a borderline gnostic hermeneutic where only "the enlightened ones" even among real born-again, spirit-filled, blood washed believers are "in the know" of the "secret" of "what the scriptures REALLY mean". It's a rotating carousel, but it always points to & rolls back around to this type issue. Besides all that, Julius, as can be routine at times, you still never answered my very simple, very direct question:
If the mark is as you say it is and quote its explanation: are you so "marked" that you are unable to hold down a job & feed your family? Are all the rest of us right now who have jobs & live as faithful witnesses just "compromised harlots" & deluded and don't know it? Are we marked with the mark of the beast with great delusion? And if you say that it just applies to certain parts of the world; what certain part? That's easy - it is the "most" this way in the 10/40 window in the lands described in the scriptures in all of the OT Prophets & Revelation. The nations immediately surrounding Israel (all Islamic majority nations, by the way). So are you saying there is a Judeo-centric eschatology the scriptures are trying to have us see? I know you wouldn't say that (lest the scriptural eschatological emphasis on the restoration of Israel & the Jews be unarguable). Anyways, I would love to hear what the mark of the beast looks like in your life & how you feed your family in this current (according to your view) "time of tribulation such as NEVER WAS, NOR NEVER WILL BE AGAIN"? In this world We have tribulation" for sure in a general, ever-present (always for believers throughout all ages) reality, but that's different then the prophesied "time of Jacob's trouble" when "the man of sin shall be revealed" & "no man can buy or sell save the mark (of the beast)". Far different.
Anyways,
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/21 11:27
watchnpray
Member



Joined: 2016/5/16
Posts: 37


 Re:

Morning all! Just popped into the office to see what the true lambs had to say and to thank them for their trouble, but gotta get to the morning service and it's way out in the sticks, so later. (And as for the hijacking of the thread by NDY, his/her/their/its post ;) was indeed good for a hearty chuckle, even if courtesy of an infiltrator. But I swear, I also felt pity for one who I thought had smoked/ingested some strange substance!) Now back to the matter at hand...


_________________
Xavier

 2016/8/21 11:38Profile









 Re:

Julius,
And please don't feel as though (wrongly if it's the case) that I'm "attacking" you or whatever. I certainly am not. I'm merely explaining issues with the teaching/doctrine you sometimes post or direct people to, & I am asking for you simply an answer a simple question that will help me understand how you see this "Mark of the Beast" playing out, if it is "right now" in our current day, in YOUR LIFE/WALK? That's not an attempt to attack you, nor make you a victim/martyr, I promise. It's merely a disagreement with your position (from history, the scriptures as a whole & logical & consistent application/explanation) & a request for clarification on what that looks like in your life. I think it's a fair question given what you presented, don't you? My desire for a response/answer isn't a "gotcha" set up either, but an honest desire for truth & understanding how you could possibly see specific current examples of this in life on the earth right now, especially yours, since that would be easy to explain since you know you and your life and all the specifics better than anyone else's. If you don't answer (as is sometimes the case), I can only assume it's because you don't have a good answer. That Your own life doesn't fit in the paradigm/timeline you attest to of the mark of the beast already being in place. If you do, it will help me understand how you see that as feasibly & functionally possible. But don't feel attacked or a victim/martyr here please. If you do, it is wrongly assigned/appropriated. I'm simply comparing scripture with scripture (in context) like we are Biblically admonished to do as a Berean & wondering how you could fit into it?
Jeff

 2016/8/21 13:52





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