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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Mark of the Beast

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re: whats wrong with literal?


_________________
Phillip

 2016/8/20 22:31Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

sorry, double post. Why does the -cancel post- not work?


_________________
Phillip

 2016/8/20 22:36Profile









 Re:

.
I lean toward the mark being some type of a computer or RFID chip. But remember the mark will also come with the worship of the beast or the antichrist.

Just a little humor. I was watching one of the end time movies on YouTube. As if I have too much time on my hands. In the movue a young lady was selling some groceries to those remnant saints that did not make the rapture. Just to bring a little humor she said will that be cash or chip. Get it...cash or chip. Yuk yuk.:)

Okay now back to the serious discussion of what is the mark?



 2016/8/20 23:09
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

Matthew Henry's interpretation:

"By disfranchisement, allowing none to enjoy natural, civil, or municipal rights, who will not worship that papal beast, that is, the image of the pagan beast. It is made a qualification for buying and selling the rights of nature, as well as for places of profit and trust, that they have the mark of the beast in their forehead and in their right hand, and that they have the name of the beast and the number of his name. It is probable that the mark, the name, and the number of the beast, may all signify the same thing—that they make an open profession of their subjection and obedience to the papacy, which is receiving the mark in their forehead, and that they oblige themselves to use all their interest, power, and endeavour, to promote the papal authority, which is receiving the mark in their right hands. We are told that pope Martin V. in his bull, added to the council of Constance, prohibits Roman catholics from suffering any heretics to dwell in their countries, or to make any bargains, use any trades, or bear any civil offices, which is a very clear interpretation of this prophecy."


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Todd

 2016/8/21 0:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

In Rev 13 John tells HIS READERS that if they have wisdom they can figure out who the Beast is by calculating the number of his name.

If the Beast was some future person wasn't John deceiving HIS READERS? After all his letter was addressed to actual churches in his day.

How in the world do we get from the apostle warning HIS READERS about things going on during that time, to the idea that that passage is talking about some future person over 2000 years removed from the time of that writing? Who made that leap? One would never reach that conclusion by simply reading the text without importing all kinds of presuppositions into it.

(P.S. "Caesar Nero" calculated out= 666-- that's another interpretation).


_________________
Todd

 2016/8/21 0:47Profile









 Re:

TMK,
Then if you take that preterist (preter meaning "past things") reading of it (they do the same hermeneutic argument and stress - "soon" & "near" & say the same thing, even though near & soon mean different things to the Lord than to us, then you must also say some very clear things about the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24-25, about I John 2, etc. Not only that, but then you are FORCED to look at Revelation 17-22 a certain way too. Because there the "beast" (as he called there), is thrown into the lake of fire with the false prophet & after that is the great white throne judgement. Not only that, but Revelation 13 which speaks of the calculating of the number of his name says, "This calls for wisdom, let the one who has understanding, calculate the number of of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." - ESV, Revelation 13:18. It says absolutely nothing about it being written only to his readers at that time. Zero.

Yes, Revelation 1-3 is written with specific words, letters, to the churches in Asia Minor. But the rest of the book from 4-22 is clearly a prophetic book. The fact is, Those churches all died out in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) & their candlesticks were taken from them & Islam has ruled them for centuries.

But the nature of prophesy in scripture can't always be quickly relegated away to only the current audience. That immediate and surrounding context must be considered, but you can't take Isaiah's or other OT Prophet's prophesies and say that they all had nothing to do with their immediate impact on Israel at the time, nor can you say none of them had any future prophetic significance. We look at context & compare scripture with scripture. If you try to relegate Revelation to ONLY the immediate readers (which the verses you were speaking of in Revelation 13 - NEVER ONCE DO THAT OR ANY SUCH THING), then why did he go on and on about so many things they would never live to see? That's illogical, & clearly not the case. He goes on to explain far future events like the binding of Satan in a pit with the lid placed on it, the beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, the devil thrown into the lake of fire, the great white throne judgement, etc. I agree that Revelation 1-3 was at the very least "mostly just" an immediate application to those churches in those cities at that time. But Revelation 4-22 is clearly prophetic & goes well beyond those churches and all the way up until the end of all things, the new heavens and new earth, etc.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/21 1:22









 Re:

Wtchnpray,
I used to think that mystery Babylon, Babylon the great, or the harlot that rides the beast was the RCC. I do not "think" that's the case any more. Especially not Babylon. Not America either.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/21 1:26









 Re:

Quote:
Matthew Henry's interpretation:

"By disfranchisement, allowing none to enjoy natural, civil, or municipal rights, who will not worship that papal beast, that is, the image of the pagan beast. It is made a qualification for buying and selling the rights of nature, as well as for places of profit and trust, that they have the mark of the beast in their forehead and in their right hand, and that they have the name of the beast and the number of his name. It is probable that the mark, the name, and the number of the beast, may all signify the same thing—that they make an open profession of their subjection and obedience to the papacy, which is receiving the mark in their forehead, and that they oblige themselves to use all their interest, power, and endeavour, to promote the papal authority, which is receiving the mark in their right hands. We are told that pope Martin V. in his bull, added to the council of Constance, prohibits Roman catholics from suffering any heretics to dwell in their countries, or to make any bargains, use any trades, or bear any civil offices, which is a very clear interpretation of this prophecy."



I brought that up in another thread on the same subject. Those who have the "mark of Christ" (are true followers of Christ), and will be shunned. They will not be hired for jobs and thus will not be able to provide for their families. Richard Wurmbrand experienced this in Romania. Christians from the first century on have been shunned by society where they could not buy or sell and it is happening today in many persecuted countries. So John the apostle was not lying to the 1st century church.

Those who have the "mark of the beast" (unregenerate), are friends with the world and the world loves its own. If the Christian would just renounce Christ, then they would not be shunned.

I believe Matthew Henry got it right and it has been applicable for every century since Christ.

 2016/8/21 1:35









 Re:

And I've seen Ceasar Nero, Popes, Antiochus, Obama, Hitler, Stalin, & all kinds of people's names equal 666, so I'm not sure if that's coincidence, shoehorning with numerology, or a pattern that comes with those "many antichrists" John spoke of that we're not "THE antichrist (ie "man of lawlessness", or "son of perdition") in the end. Gog of Magog is a way of saying in Biblical geographical historical terms, the anyichrist from the area of Turkey. This is provable by all of the scriptures (& the recorded commentary opinion/explanation of many Bible scholars historically) that speak on the subject. You can have that explained and proven to you if it interests you, here:

Joel Richardson's The Underground, Episode 48, Gog is the Antichrist, A Historical Survey
https://youtu.be/Aef-ieQmsWY

 2016/8/21 1:41









 Re: The number of the beast is the number of man, not "A" man.

Christians constantly need the wisdom of Christ (I Cor. 1:24,30) to discern Satan’s activity from Christ’s activity, to distinguish between religion and genuine Christianity. “Here is wisdom,” declares the risen Lord Jesus. “Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six” (13:18). Throughout the Revelation numbers have symbolic significance. Seven is the number of divine perfection, and if the number seven were triplicated as seven hundred and seventy-seven it would represent the triune perfection of the Godhead. The number six falls short of that which is of God. Man certainly falls short of that which is of God and brings glory to God (Rom. 3:23). Six hundred and sixty-six is a number that comes short of perfection. It is a parody on the divine trinity of perfec- tion represented by seven hundred and seventy-seven. It is a number that represents the beast of religion, which though inspired and energized by the self-oriented, rebellious activity of Satan, is evidenced by man’s self-effort to appease and please God apart from Jesus Christ. Religion is man’s best efforts to construct moral systems and theological formulations and institutional structures. It is the best that man can do as he tries to reach God, just as he did at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9).

The “number of the beast” is explicitly identied as “the number of man” (13:18). Many translations and interpretations of this text supply an indefnite article which indicates that the number of the beast is “a man.” The original Greek language of the Revelation has no indenite article, and proper hermeneutic principles allow us to supply such in English translation only if the context demands such for clarity of expression. Such is not the case in this instance. When the indefinite article is supplied it gives the impression that the second beast is to be identi ed as a singular and particular individual man. This has led to much religious obsession with decoding the cryptographic number of “six hundred and sixty-six” in order to identify a particular person. Speculations have included Nero, Caligula, other Roman emperors, Mohammed, various Roman Catholic popes, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, various United States presidents, leaders of Russia, etc. The numbers can arbitrarily and subjectively be twisted in order to apply to anyone! When such a procedure is employed the primary emphasis of the vision is missed. There is no need to identify this number as a particular historical individual. When the indefinite article is not supplied, a consistent contextual meaning is evident as the “number of the beast” is explained to be the “number of man” or the “number of mankind” as he engages in religious endeavors. Those who would demand a translation and interpretation that supplies the indefinite article identifying the number of the beast as “a man,” must also allow the Jehovah’s Witnesses to do the same in their translation of John 1:1, wherein they indicate that the Word was “a god.” Few Christian religionists would want to allow such, but equity of translation technique would demand such.

James Fowler
http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/RevelationCommEbook.pdf

 2016/8/21 1:46





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