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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Sipping Saints - An outcry against the alarming spread of drinking among Christians -David Wilkerson

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 Re:

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1 Corithians 10:23

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.


Living in Arkansas where the summers are unbearably hot. If I come in on a hot day when the heat index is 105 degrees. A cold brewski is certainly quite appealing. And I would certainly argue that I have Christian liberty the drink that cold brewski. Provided I am not causing another saint to stumble with my use of liberty. At least that's what I used to argue.

The article by David Wilkerson has really caused me to rethink this issue. That and discussions with a dear sister who has been reminding me of the need to ever have the cross at the center of my life.

We are living in an age when darkness is becoming more pronounced. And the church is becoming more worldly. I have a friend who sarcastically would say join the church and see the world.

My friend would be justified in his comment when we see the state of the evangelical church in America. A church that is quite worldly. How are we the city set on the hill? How are we the light in the darkness? How are we the counterculture to a worldly culture? How do we reflect the holy reality of the city above? How do we reflect the holy reality of a holy Christ who dwells within us? Can a Spirit-filled Christian who says he has Jesus Christ abiding in him have a New Testament in one hand and a brewski in another? And expect to be a solid witness to the non-believer?

If one goes into a church in cease a group of professing Christians speaking of worldly things. And then sees that same group of Christians out in a bar enjoying their drinks. Where is the difference?

Though drinking may be lawful under the new covenant. Is it profitable? Though drinking may be lawful under the new covenant. Is it edifying? If we would employ the above test in the case of drinking. Asking is it profitable and is it edifying. I believe we would come to the answer it is better not to drink. Even in the so-called social situations.

There may have been things which we considered lawful under the liberty of Christ. But I believe the Holy Spirit will have us come to the cross and crucify even the lawful things. These may be things such as forms of entertainment, social media, drinking, places we may have frequented, etc. The Holy Spirit will start convicting us to even lay down the lawful things as we pursue holiness as unto Christ.

God is coming back for a spotless bride. Peter writes that we should be holy in all of our behavior because God says He is holy.

If we must ere. Then let us ere as Paul did when he said may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world.


Simply my thoughts and reflections.


 2016/8/11 12:55









 Re:

It's a cultural issue. I am sure that the founding fathers wanted to dissociate themselves from the drunken reputation of the British, then and now. I think that is behind the touchiness of Americans concerning drink.

Go to Germany though, and France l believe, and alcohol has an entirely different meaning. A glass of beer with a meal, or wine in France, is entirely accepted by all of society. I remember seeing people taking their empties back for the deposits in Berlin, with their bags clinking and clanking, and thinking they would not dare do that so openly in Britain, in case word got around their neighbours that they were alcoholics. The older ones that is.

In Germany they are much more family centred and do not spend their time in pubs getting a skin full like they do in my country. It is a small glass and maybe two of a healthful drink, containing b vitamins because of traditional brewing, with a meal, and that's it. No association with being a degenerate and not high levels of abuse l would imagine.

Nudity is the same. It is not associated with lust like here or in the US. In Germany it is about healthy sunbathing and swimming and people are naked in lakes with no one turning a blind eye to it. Even the young lads are not googling.

I think that this has to be taken into consideration, and as it has not been culturally acceptable, then one must be aware and perhaps only drink at home, and certainly not have alcohol in the communion cup where drink problems are common.

 2016/8/11 13:28









 Re: Sipping Saints - An outcry against the alarming spread of drinking among Christia

I think it is very important to note that this sermon was given by David on May 1, 1977. This was long before he the Lord opened his eyes to the NEW Covenant.

Look at what he wrote here in his book "IT IS FINISHED"

"In my later years, I have concluded that laying hold of the New Covenant is the only way to break free from the power and dominion of sin. I hope to show you in this book how that glorious work takes place. Yet the unveiling of the New Covenant is not something within my power or ability to do. Only the Holy Spirit can open up its marvelous truths to the seeker. I can, however, assure all who are discouraged by their lack of victory over a besetting sin that this book can open your eyes to the incredible promises and provisions God has given to all who intensely yearn for freedom from sin's dominion. May the Holy Spirit unveil the glory and power of the New Covenant to every seeker who desires to walk in holiness and peace."

 2016/8/11 13:30









 Re:

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1 Peter 1:14-16

Therefore prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourself also in all your behavior; because it is written "YOU SHALL BE HOLY BECAUSE I AM HOLY."


Brethren this is a matter of practical holiness. This is something that transcends cultures. It is a practical holiness to reflect the purity of a bride that Christ is coming for.

Jesus is calling for us to be separate from the world. He is calling for us to live out the reality of His pure Kingdom above. Should archon does not reflect that reality of Christ dwelling in our hearts. Should our conduct not reflect a holy behavior that testifies of a holy Lord who lives in us?

 2016/8/11 13:39
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: What the bible says about alcohol

As a drunkard and drug user in myself before Christ saved me, and one who was saved into a "classical pentecostal" type of tradition that frowned on any consumption of alcohol; I eventually came to the place of "maturity" (or so it seemed to me at the time) that allowed me to drink a beer very periodically (less than once a month, most often when at a resturant) - but this message by a solid, biblical brother really sobered me up regarding drinking alcohol: https://player.fm/series/blessed-hope-chapel/what-the-bible-says-about-alcohol

After listening to this message, I decided to lay it down and not to drink it at all any more, as my (unbelieving) father used to say all the time: "Better safe than sorry"!

This may also help: https://youtu.be/PgdK7kaM9Z8


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/11 13:42Profile









 Re:

Again I will say: each one follow your own conscience & no one is free to be a drunkard, but just don't add to the Word or take it out of context to "make your point" and try to apply that as a rule or a law for everyone. Just like how Paul said "it is better not to marry, but nevertheless,...each one have his own wife..." Are we now going to start preaching celibacy as "the right thing"? I'm not. No sir. But if someone reads these passages and feels that call to celibacy from God, praise God, I will support them. But, if they then start preaching it as a Law or "what everyone should do", I'm going to shut it down gracefully with the full course of scripture in context. And so let's look at the verses Bear brought up IN CONTEXT, and see if they are speaking of an occasional individual, private, non-stumbling, non-drunkard glass of wine or beer, or what they are actually speaking to?

1 Corinthians 6

Flee Sexual Immorality

12"All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Anything about an occasional private non-stumbling, non-drunkeness glass of wine or beer? No. Sexual immorality is the context.

What about 1 Corinthians 10?

14Therefore, my beloved, xflee from idolatry. 15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?


Do All to the Glory of God

23"All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.25Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.” 27If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Anything about a private, single glass of wine or a beer? Nope. Idolatry. Food sacrificed to idols. And even there if there's no question raised on it and you don't know, just eat it and thank the Lord. If it's been sacrificed to demons & you know it, don't. Nothing about a glass of wine on a rare romantic date with your spouse or a cold beer after mowing 3 acres on a hot summer day.

And Greg, state run churches and remnant churches is a modern equivalent (in the east). Apples and oranges. And divorce (& head-coverings) is a whole other issue. A straw man really when brought into this conversation. Divorce comes from apostasy yes (adultery and apostasy come from the same original Hebrew root word). And the main problem is rampant sexual immorality. Not an occasional glass of wine. Not at all.

And as far as your conscience as a kid, maybe your dad was an alcoholic? Maybe you knew the beer was what made him drunk or mean to you & your family? I have no idea? I don't go to "beer stores" either. They sell wine at restaurants if I want a glass with a meal or the grocery store if I really want a glass for a special occasion at home. Your conscience on this issue is your conscience and I expect & exhort you as a brother to follow it! But using the Word of God (& historical fact) out of context or twisting/shaping it to fit a narrative is what I feel invokes some balanced teaching/speech on honestly. It's something that always throughout history starts with good motives and in the rear-view ended with legalism. I don't want liberalism/apostasy/lukewarm Christianity! No. A thousand times no. I also don't want Phariseeiacal Legalism that adds to the word and creates the "traditions and doctrines of men". I have seen the fruits of that in the United Pentacostal Church back in the day, the Amish, etc. Legalism doesn't save anymore than Liberalism. Nor is it any more holy or Biblical or balanced. I appreciate (& personally operate with a lot of) PASSION! Pathos! But gotta be careful that is directed right. The Word gives us proper balance in context.

Sturgeon smoked Cigars on occasion and said he did it to the Glory of God. I'm sure that REALLY is abhorrent among the "teetotaler" theology? But I digress. I'm just saying. The church isn't rampant with divorce or rabid feminists who won't embrace submission or modesty because I have a glass of wine with dinner once every month or two. Sorry, that's a total straw man from the top to the bottom. And there's no Biblical, historical, factual or logical connection there. None whatsoever.

God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/11 13:44









 Re:

Very balanced argument Jeff and l say this after being married to an alcoholic.

 2016/8/11 13:51









 Re:

Brenda,
You had me in mostly agreement until the nude bathing part. Sorry, but there's nothing modest about being naked in front of strangers. "Wear modest attire" is clear in scripture. We can vary on what that means, but if your nude, how could that be modest attire when it's no attire? Adam and Eve hid because they knew they were naked & God covered them with animal skins. It's deeply spiritual and the first protoevangalium of Christ the Lamb to cover, but the practical application is that their private parts were covered. A desensitized young lad doesn't change the Word of God either. Sorry, but I had to say something to say that's not what I'm saying overall with my discussion on the occasional private glass of wine. Not at all. 😊
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/8/11 13:53
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Straw man

Quote:
by jeffmar1130 on 2016/8/11 10:44:24
The church isn't rampant with divorce or rabid feminists who won't embrace submission or modesty because I have a glass of wine with dinner once every month or two. Sorry, that's a total straw man from the top to the bottom.



I didn't perceive Greg to be claiming any of the other issues were the result of alcohol consumption...


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/11 13:54Profile









 Re:

I never said that l approved, l was just comparing cultural attitudes and would not dream of condoning it for Christians.

 2016/8/11 13:55





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