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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Total depravity or just dead and sinful?

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 Re:

JFW, that is why I said "if". If not then no harm.

I mentioned it because I run into this error so much with it's devastating consequences. The real condition of man is the start point for everything else. It's the "you are here" circle on the directory at the mall. Get it wrong and not only will you not end up where you want but your not likely to figure out where are in the first place.

Is man 100% corrupted or 99% or less is the foundation of everything else that follows. Most debates among Christians can sooner or later be traced back to what a person believes about that question.

Marc mc

 2016/8/3 12:24









 Re:

I think it comes down to two statuses.

With God

Without God

Rather than focus on the condition, focus on the source who we are deriving our character from.

Because our present condition is directly related to who our F(father) is.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and WITHOUT GOD in the world:

Eph 2:13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The absent of God in one's life is not man standing alone, but man being a child of the devil and the spirit of this world operating in man.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others.

But children of who....the Devil because it is his spirit operating in them.

By faith we escape the Devil and his kingdom of darkness and now have the Spirit of God.

 2016/8/3 12:39









 Re:

My point relates to the individual condition of man as a result of the fall. In other words if man is 100% corrupted then all is of Gods grace, if he is 99% or less, then man contributes something. I have found that these two positions continue in the formation of beliefs.

The thread as I understood is about depravity rather than two kingdoms.

Marc mc

 2016/8/3 12:48
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1388
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Marc

Yes I understand your point and while it is well made, I (personally) cannot find this in scripture which is why I inquired about Enoch...
I understand also that you do in fact find the scriptures to state this and while respect that I cannot in clear conscience share in it.
But I do appreciate your responses and your time brother:)


_________________
Fletcher

 2016/8/3 12:53Profile









 Re:

Forgive me, what part can you not find in scripture?

Marc mc

 2016/8/3 13:53
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1388
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Well honestly brother Marc I have no heart to debate a point- but am def open to learning:)
So I feel that if I were to say too much that it would require you to retort and I hope not to put you in that position by my answer so I'll be somewhat brief-
I cannot find where the scripture states we are born totally depraved or even a lil bit for that matter. I do understand and respect that you read the same passages but come to a dif conclusion. Tho yes I have many orthodox and reformed brothers who have clearly presented the shared perspective on this, I cannot with a clear conscience before God make the same confession as it says quite the opposite to me.

I hope this doesn't come of as contentious as that is not my intent at all, but like you and most of us on SI, I too have strong convictions regarding this nonetheless am open to learn-


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Fletcher

 2016/8/3 14:22Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


I think this verse shows that Jesus is saying that a man with out the drawing graces of God cannot come to Jesus .

That in a nutshell ,is total deprivation,the inability to come to Christ in his natural state ..

But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


God must act upon the heart and concence of the fallen sons of Adam ,to help them see there sin and desern the truth of the gosple message ,other wise folly is all he sees ,and resistance is natural , God must also open the heart or renew the heart so that he can

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.






 2016/8/3 18:12Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Fletcher,

I have a question; are you saying that Enoch and Elijah were outside the need of a Savior, and pleased God on their own merits, without sin?

Is not the Cross the proof of total depravity, lest Enoch and Elijah did not need the cross. They were not standing in the Cross of Christ, for it had not even been mentioned yet, except Mary's seed, (who can only be Jesus Christ) this secret mystery had not been revealed yet.

Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Enoch and Elijah must have been in sinless perfection with no need of a Savior. Is this what you are saying?

I am truly confused.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2016/8/3 18:14Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1388
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Phillip

No dear brother by no means am I saying that and I apologize for not being more succinct, was simply seeking some scriptures from brother Marc.

I do confess that I do not hold to the doctrine that we are born "sinners" as I cannot square it with scripture without applying it (the doctrine) to scripture. I do however believe that we all sin and at that point become sinners and therefore need a Savior. Was just seeking brother Marc's position on this as he seems a well educated man and willing to share his wisdom:)

I'm short for time as its busy at work but I hope that helps to clarify without being contentious or derailing the thread.


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Fletcher

 2016/8/3 18:30Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Psalm 58

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

If it is true that the evil are estranged from the womb ,and also the hearts of the children of men are full of evil ,then these two verse would suggest that we are born in sin ,becaue we too are evil ..

Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

When we are born we become part of the living ,and if we have been declared unrighteous , then being born in sin is the natural result of the fall ..
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

This vers also lends it self to the fact that that all in the unbelieving state , which is the natural state of humans from birth are not pure...


1 cor 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Children being unclean suggest that they are not holy as Paul says ,,the facts are they are sinfull weather they are responsible or not ,being unclean is contrasting to holiness,,,, for if one is not an unclean sinner,then one is holy and righeous ,and that children are not n Paul's eyes ..



 2016/8/3 18:43Profile





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