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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2129

 Isaiah 60 and Future Glory

1 “Arise, shine; for your light has come,
And the GLORY OF THE LORD has risen upon you.

2 “For behold, darkness will cover the earth
And deep darkness the peoples;
But the Lord will rise upon you
And HIS GLORY will appear upon you.

3 “Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.

4 “Lift up your eyes round about and see;
They all gather together, they come to you.
Your sons will come from afar,
And your daughters will be carried in the arms.

5 “Then you will see and be radiant,
And your heart will thrill and rejoice;
Because the abundance of the sea will be turned to you,
The wealth of the nations will come to you.

6 “A multitude of camels will cover you,
The young camels of Midian and Ephah;
All those from Sheba will come;
They will bring gold and frankincense,
And will bear good news of the praises of the Lord.

7 “All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered together to you,The rams of Nebaioth will minister to you;
They will go up with acceptance on My altar,

8 “Who are these who fly like a cloud
And like the doves to their lattices?

9 “Surely the coastlands will wait for Me;
And the ships of Tarshish will come first,
To bring your sons from afar,
Their silver and their gold with them,
For the name of the Lord your God,
And for the Holy One of Israel because HE HAS GLORIFIED YOU.

10 “Foreigners will build up your walls,
And their kings will minister to you;
For in My wrath I struck you,
And in My favor I have had compassion on you.

11 “Your gates will be open continually;
They will not be closed day or night,
So that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
With their kings led in procession.

12 “For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly ruined.

13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
The juniper, the box tree and the cypress together,
To beautify the place of MY SANCTUARY;
And I shall make the place of My feet GLORIOUS.

14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you,
And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet;
And they will call you the city of the Lord,
The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 “Whereas you have been forsaken and hated
With no one passing through,
I will make you an everlasting pride,
A joy from generation to generation.

16 “You will also suck the milk of nations
And suck the breast of kings;
Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

17 “Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
And instead of iron I will bring silver,
And instead of wood, bronze,
And instead of stones, iron.
And I will make peace your administrators
And righteousness your overseers.

18 “Violence will not be heard again in your land,
Nor devastation or destruction within your borders;
But you will call your walls salvation, and your gates praise.

19 “No longer will you have the sun for light by day,
Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;
But you will have the Lord for an everlasting light,
And your God for YOUR GLORY

20 “Your sun will no longer set,
Nor will your moon wane;
For you will have the Lord for an everlasting light,
And the days of your mourning will be over.

21 “Then all your people will be righteous;
The branch of My planting,
The work of My hands,
That I may be GLORIFIED.

22 “The smallest one will become a clan,
And the least one a mighty nation.
I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.”

The church indeed has a measure of glory imparted to it by the Lord. Unto Him be glory in the church forever and ever. Amen! Yet one of the mysteries that the Gospel revealed was that the powers of the age to come (the full blown Messianic era anticipated so long by the patriarchs and prophets of Israel) were unexpectedly brought into this age by Christ BEFORE the great transitional day of the Lord which will usher in the Messianic era in its fullness. (See Hebrews 6:4-5) The powers of the age to come have "already" come but are "not yet" seen in the power and glory that they will be seen after the day of the Lord. There is presently an overlapping of the ages - the powers of the age to come have already been brought into this present age. As time went by and after the destuction of 70 AD the church in many quarters began to think of itself as the "new Israel" as the thinking was that the destruction of 70 AD was full proof that God had disenfranchised and permanently divorced the Jewish nation and all promises meant for them were therefore meant for and inherited by the believing church. To help bolster its poposition, the church began to believe and advocate that when the Spirit came at Pentecost along with it came the full realization of the promises that are only inherited by the coming of the Spirit. True in some ways but in many ways no. To make this scenario work the church began to teach that many of the prophecies etc. made to Israel were really only meant to be teaching examples and illustrations that later were in need of re-interpretation in the greater light of Christ's coming and the reception of the Spirit within each believer. Some even began to teach and still do that when Christ came that Israel had fulfilled its destiny by the coming of Christ and therefore became irrelevant in the plan of God. It supposedly became just a nation like any other nation after serving its purpose which culminated at the appearance of Christ. Then the "peculiarity" of the Jews (to them belong the covenants and the promises) was supposed to cease as Israel and its promises were swallowed up and inherited by the church proper. It's my proposition that it's not wrong for the church to claim the promises made to Israel especially since the indwelling of the Spirit has become a privilege for each believer. But is God really through with the Jewish nation? Did 70 AD really signify a permanent casting off of Israel? I don't believe that case can be made from scripture even in light of promises being spiritually inherited in Christ who is the source of all righteousness and godly glory. Did the coming of the Spirit really change many prophecies of a future glory for Israel under the leadership of its long departed but now returned Savior? If He's not going to return to Isarel where will He return to? London, England? Buenos Aires? Geneva, Switzerland? How would Israel remain "just another nation" if Christ returns to it? I think that would set it apart in a sigmificant way. Another mystery the gospel revealed was that the coming of its Messiah would be twofold. He would come, leave, and then return again. If the nation becomes converted by faith in His atoning work accomplished at His first coming (the first part of the mystery of two comings) and receives the same outpouring of the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:29; Joel 2:28-29; Matt 3:11) then GLORY would be present. I believe Christ will return to JERUSALEM also know in scripure as Zion or God's holy mountain. I propose many promises are stil outstanding to the Jewish nation and Jersualem that were not made mute or in need of re-interpretation by the coming of the Spirit. What came at Pentecost and what we have experienced has always been just a foretaste of the powers of the Spirit that will be poured out in the age to come. The church is right to claim the promises but if Israel becomes a believing part of the body of Christ then much can still be fulilled in them and their nation by the coming of the Spirit to them in that day.

Isaiah chapter 60, especially Isaiah 60:1-3, is a chapter that because of Gentile replacement/supercessionsim has ceased to have any meaning for a future Israel experiencing a future glory yet to come to it. In its original context, the prophecy was made to that nation and spoke of a post-tribulational day when Jerusalem itself would become a glory and praise among the nations most assuredly because of the presence of its long departed King. It was not inspired by God as to pertan SOLELY to the present church of this age. There is still a age to come when the glory of that day will be greater than any former glory. We "already" are experiencing this glory in this age in the church but are "not yet" experiencing it as it will be in that day. Why disenfranchise Israel because we supposedly inhertied eveything at the coming of the Spirit? Much remains for Israel and God's beloved city Jerusalem which is what Isaiah 60 is about.

Isaiah 60 speaks of a GREAT GLORY rising upon Jerusalem (Zion, God''s holy mountain) and it speaks of a sanctuary (60:7,13), a change in attitude among the nations toward Israel (60:3, 10, 14), the wealth of the nations being brought to Jerusalem (60:5,9,11)a lack of violence in the land (60:18), and a people who are ALL righteous (60:21) instead of just a remnant. Their righteousness (60:17,21) will be none other than the righteousness of Christ Himself and therefore the prophecies WILL BE FULFIILED IN AND BY CHRIST as the popular teaching goes. As all these things work, the latter glory shall be greater than the former (Haggai 2:9).

David Winter

 2016/7/27 10:38Profile

 Re: Isaiah 60 and Future Glory


Have you heard of a brother (A Biblical scholar on this subject really) named Barry Horner? Wrote a book called "Future Israel" that's part of a New Testament Biblical Commentary Series? Good stuff. I have just recently discovered the brother. There are a whole series of 5-7 minute interview Q&A sessions on YouTube where he answers questions on Israel, the prophets, the Messainic Age, the covenants, etc. And his entire 433 page book "Future Israel" is available to read for FREE at (Horner is a John Bunyan scholar expert & also posts Horatious Bonar's entire "Prophetical Landmarks" book online for FREE also) - FYI.

What I find is that when many people left the once before commonly held belief of (& still is somewhat popular overall, but is rapidly losing credibility & adherents daily in this day) idea of "dispensationalism" (something I personally never believed) & went looking for better answers, they went right to the Augustinian/Origenian school of Replacement Theology. They left one error for another one (just diametrically opposite Dispensationalism - reactionary theology). What I am finding is that even if I don't have all the answers, they are there to be mined out, with an open Bible, an open heart, & the help of those who have studied this before already. And I find that at least most of the "objections" to it are either straw men or isolated "proof-texts" out of context used as pre-texts (eisogesis not exegesis). The fact that God states in Romans 11 that He is going to single out Israel and "All Israel Shall be Saved" before it all wraps up, the "scandal of particularity" should be over? Unless there's a "boasting" or an "arrogance" against the Jew to which Paul warned sharply in that same context whose implications can be devastating. I will post here an article again against one of the "straw man" arguments against "Israel" Where it isn't used properly, & when we understand & approach it accurately, solves a lot of confusion & misapplication:

3 Biblical Meanings of the word "Israel"
written by Revive Israel Staff

As Christians, how are we to relate to Israel? How do we connect with her?
In Romans 11:17-24, Paul likens this vital, organic connection to being grafted into the Olive Tree of God's covenant family. For a complete understanding of this teaching, we have to first understand that the biblical term "Israel" has three primary layers of meaning:

1. The Jewish people – "Israel" (Prince with God) first appears as the name bestowed by God to Jacob after his famous wrestling match with a divine messenger in Genesis 22. At this foundational stage "Israel" is simply the name given to the great patriarch of the 12 tribes of Israel and later to their offspring. By covenant, God thus forever identifies Himself as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ... the God of Israel." So, "Israel" is the physical descendants of these patriarchs, who later become known as the Jewish people.

2. The nation of Israel and the land of Israel – Some 400 years later, the population of the tribes of Israel had greatly multiplied, and together they were ready to become a nation. At Sinai, the people received the Torah/Law containing the basic elements that will define their culture, laws, and society. After entering the Promised Land, there is another covenant which establishes the nation as an eternal, Messianic kingdom under David and his descendants (2 Sam. 7). This nation/kingdom has Jerusalem—the City of David—as its eternal capital.

3. Israel, the saved remnant – This is where things get a little tricky. In the NT, and especially in the theology of Paul, we learn that in every generation there is a spiritual subset of the wider Israel—a saved remnant in which the fullness of God's promises to Israel are realized. On the outside, this group of Jewish people looks like everyone else and speaks the same language; but on the inside, their hearts are born again, "circumcised" and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Even when it appears—as has been the case throughout most of history—that the majority of Jewish people are not faithfully responding to God's graceful revelation for that generation, God's Word of promise to the whole nation is still true because of the holy remnant. (Rom 11:16) This is just as true in Elijah's day, Paul's day, and our day—because "not all Israel is Israel." (Rom 9:6; 11:1-7) What's more, under the New Covenant even believing Gentiles can be "grafted in" to this covenantal olive tree of faith in the saving grace of the God of Israel. (Rom 9:24; 11:17) So, Israel is the remnant people of faith in Jesus—first to the Jew and also to the non-Jew, together as "One New Man" (Eph. 2:15).
In summary, one and two refer to Israel as physical realities, while three refers to Israel in a more mysterious, spiritual way. All three are biblically valid expressions of what the Bible means by "Israel," and we may find ourselves connecting to one or the other at different times. But Romans (especially 11:11-26) and Ephesians (2:11—3:6) teach that the "fullness" of the revelation of God's plan for Jew and Gentile (Israel and the nations) depends on us rightly discerning His priorities of "grafting" in the Olive Tree.

Paul's letters teach us that under the New Covenant the fullness of the mystery of God's intention for "Israel" is found in Christ (Messiah), and by aligning the relations between Jew and Gentile according to all His covenants with Israel: people, nation and remnant!

(In part two of this series, we will look at what these relations may look like practically.) {eoa]

For the original article, visit

 2016/7/27 11:18

 Re: Isaiah 60 and Future Glory

And I wasn't trying to hijack your thread Docs! I have just found that if people wrongly define & misappropriate defining "Israel" in the scriptures through a bad hermeneutic, they never even start at the right place so it all goes in one ear and out the other.

 2016/7/27 11:27

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2129

 Re: Setting one's heart to understand

I read Horner's book about five years ago and keep it as a valuable reference book and would recommend it to anyone.

/What I am finding is that even if I don't have all the answers, they are there to be mined out, with an open Bible, an open heart, & the help of those who have studied this before already./

Pst abuses etc. of the prophetic emphasis of the Bible should not keep us from trying to mine as you suggest. Daniel had revelations and the future opened to him because he set his heart to understand.

"Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard.; and I have come because of your words." (Daniel 10:12)

That's a far cry from the modern ambivalence that says it's all in God's hands so why should I even bother to look into it. There's a clear and pretty simple order set forth to the events of the last days that even non academics can get it with a little time and effort. The average person in the pew is just as able to gain insight as any academic theologian. It wasn't meant to be nor was it recorded for the sole purpose of keeping its meaning basicaly hidden. One must set their heart to understand.

Meanwhile, all that the church has experienced now by way of glory is only a precursor to the Holy Spirit being poured out in that day and the GLORY that will follow. If what has been so far is glorious than we can look forward to the future glory of that day with keen and high expectation. For sure a lot is about the glory in the present church but not everything pertains to this age. There is GLORY to come for the elect nation and the whole Christ will return to.

David Winter

 2016/7/27 13:25Profile


Okay alright BUT do you guys not yet realize that the word
Israel is interchangeable with the word church even in the Old Testament? Never mind the fact that the church did not exist in OT Times, that is irrelevant.
Now back to your discussion.

 2016/7/27 13:58

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