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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is Satan bound now, or is that to come?

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Tozsu how did you come to that conclusion,, that passage teaches ,that when christ comes ,the first resarection takes place ,and so does the 1000 year rane , when it says the the rest of the dead, did not live again ,that is speaking about the second resarection , of the wcked .. And the end of that age .


I didn't..

 2016/7/25 9:55









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And like I said, no one gets these weird verse scrambling end points on how to read them from the context itself. That MUST be imported into the text. And a text without context is a pretext. This is the nature of eisogesis when studying scripture. In other areas of Biblical hermeneutics, study, & interpretation, the same people who would do this here (to prop up "their view") would find it egregious elsewhere if others did it to prop up a view in opposition to their view. And egregious it would also be. So, maybe, just maybe, what we are building on and importing into the natural flow, reading, & understanding of the events of Revelation 19-20 from other isolated "proof texts" aren't fully and completely properly understood? Maybe, just maybe, if we started into these texts of Revelation 19-20 (in the larger context of Revelation 17-21) looking at what it's actually saying & not starting from "it can't possibly be saying XYZ, so it must be saying something else, so let me see what works for my view...", We might come to a place of "wait a minute - How can this be?"

And when we start isolating single verses, tieing in a string of isolated verses, having to rely on the case some guy made in an article longer than The Illiad & The Odyssey to understand it, then it reminds me an awful lot honestly of the cases I have heard & seen over the years for a secret pre-tribulation rapture &/or Preterism (and often gets a "borderline gnostic" feel
To it where only those "in the secret knowledge" loop can "get it") But I believe such to be seriously faulty in light of the full counsel of the Word of God with all of its parts in context. So also do I believe this "satan is bound now" stuff.

 2016/7/25 9:59









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The binding of satan is said in that when that happens he wont be able to deciev the nations ,,that is clearly still happening , and john said it was the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, that that was writtern after the church age had begun... So how could it be said that he is now bound



answer ia a quote from me:

Quote:

Is satan still deceiving the nations?
Was the kingly rule of god available to to other nations than the people of Israel in the OT? To some individuals yes such as Rahab or Ruth but entire nations and people were unaware of the nature or existence of a true god. There was no invitation extended to the nations to come and be under the rule of God. Not so in the NT. The gospel message has spread everywhere telling to the people of all nations to have Jesus Christ as their lord and king. The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed started with a few followers and grows big till it fills the earth. Satan can not stop this (spreading the truth) therefore he can not deceive the nations.
Is Satan bound?
After Jesus cast out some demons he said that no one can go into a strong man's house and steal his goods unless he binds that strong man first. Jesus and the disciples were able to cast out demons because satan was bound. This they could not do in the OT because satan was not bound.


It is similar to this: The cananaites were judged by God and it was determined that they were to be killed by the Israelites and the land was given over to the Israelites. It did not happen at ones, it depended on the obedience of Israel, and the cananeites caused a lot of problems to them, but that doesn`t change the fact that Israels victory was pre decided by God. So is our victory over the kingdom of Satan but not without fight.
The truth of the gospel penetrates the nations and satan can not stop it. Satan`s kingdom is constantly loosing subjects while God's kingdom is gaining subjects.

 2016/7/25 10:34









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Notice that there can be no argument as to this being satan being released from the chains of darkness , becasue ....

12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.” 13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given..

Becasue in this verse he comes down to the earth ,not up from the abyss...


I believe this happened when Jesus came and just before satan was bound and the Kingdom of God started, during the earthly ministry of Jesus.

 2016/7/25 10:45









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Jeff,
I do not fully understand the book of revelation. From all the books in in the bible that is the book that I understand the least. So when I am trying to interpret the text, I use the information from the other books of the bible that have been made clear to me.
It seems that Satan still can deceive individuals but the light of the gospel is available to all the gentile nations, unlike before Jesus came, so Satan can not keep captive whomsoever he wants because Jesus died for them and saves them from their sins and from slavery to Satan. There is no massive nationwide darkness, in almost every nation now there are some who have the light and it is spreading, fills the earth more and more. The nations are not sitting in darkness any more they have the light and hope of salvation. In that sense Satan can not deceive the nations. If in each nation there are some who are christians, the people of that nation have more chance to hear the gospel and repent, to be free from slavery to Satan so his kingdom always gets smaller by loosing subjects, and he can not do anything about it because he is bound.

 2016/7/25 11:40









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Toszu,
I appreciate your response and your honesty. Honestly, that seems to be the typical response from people of Amillineal persuasion (it's in all the books and articles from All the common teachers responding to Revelation 20 so I hear it come back a lot). But consider these things:

It's the last book of the Bible. It was a vision (not a dream) given to the apostle John. It is called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (say that a few times and really meditate on that). Jesus said, "Blessed is the one who reads and understands the words of this book of prophecy." It ends with the most amazing words and events in al of human history. And then consider this, specifically on Revelation 19-20

Do you understand that there will be a false prophet & a beast? Do you understand what "The lake of Fire that burns with sulfur" is that they will be thrown into? Do you understand what martyred saints who have been beheaded for their testimony & the Word of God means? Do you understand something about what the Marriage supper of the Lamb is? Do you understand something of what the great prostitute being cast down and judged & all of heaven rejoicing means? Do you understand what the sharp sword "that comes out of the mouth" of Jesus means & what "dipped in the blood of his enemies & treading the wine press of the wrath of God means? Do you understand who the dragon, Satan, is? Do you understand what likely implications of being thrown into a pit, the abyss, & having it consequentially shut means? Do you understand what the Great White throne judgement where all the books are opened and everyone is judged means?

If we understand a great deal about all of these things from a plain reading of the ext and other scriptures on these EXACT events/people/places/etc. then why the "Revelation is a confusing book I don't understand as much as others..." Response? I'm not saying everyone must explain the entire book of Revelation or every detail either. I'm saying in context reading through chapters 17-21, & then ripping "satan was bound for 1,000 years" from its place, redirecting it to before chapter 17 & then jumping "back to the future" to chapter 21 is an eisogetical presuppositional butchering of the text with absolutely no contextual basis whatsoever for doing it, & so doesn't make sense. Was God trying to intentionally confuse everyone (except Augustine's/Origen & those who would later follow their interpretation?)? I don't think so. I don't think that's being responsible to the examination of the text itself. And "Revelation is a confusing book" (in places or by degrees) contributes nothing to the conversation on these texts in their context. It just looks like an imposed excuse honestly to not deal with the passages themselves head on. Seems more responsible to me to say, "I don't know...I see what you're saying & that makes sense, but I just don't know the answer.." Then to explain it away with strange methodology & "fanciful eisogesis" as John Piper called it in his message to the Gospel Coalition Conference last year with his message "The Branch of David".

 2016/7/25 12:17









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And it's a non-sequitur response because

No one "FULLY" understands the book of Revelation in every part/detail, but that's not required to just look at this text in context

 2016/7/25 12:22









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Quote:
Do you understand that there will be a false prophet & a beast? Do you understand what "The lake of Fire that burns with sulfur" is that they will be thrown into? Do you understand what martyred saints who have been beheaded for their testimony & the Word of God means? Do you understand something about what the Marriage supper of the Lamb is? Do you understand something of what the great prostitute being cast down and judged & all of heaven rejoicing means? Do you understand what the sharp sword "that comes out of the mouth" of Jesus means & what "dipped in the blood of his enemies & treading the wine press of theirs the of God means? Do you understand who the dragon, Satan, is? Do you understand what likely implications of being thrown into a pit, the abyss, & having it consequentially shut means? Do you understand what the Great White throne judgement where all the books are opened and everyone is judged means?


Jeff,
I understand that the book of revelation was written (or could have been written) around the late 60s. It is not 100% proven otherwise. So what is written there was written to the churches of that time. What was future for these churches (such as a persecution) can be future to us but not necessarily. It is likely that some events that were future in the late 60s are past to us and some other events (such as the final judgement) are future also to us. I think the book of revelation is not specifically written to our generation but it is written directly to the generation of the first century christians.
Maybe when those christians were reading the book of revelation it was less confusing to them than it is to us especially just a couple of years later when they were able to clearly identify the events that were prophesied and also took place before their eyes, and they could clearly see which of the prophecied events were still to come to pass later in the future.
May I ask you to avoid generalizations such as (all amillennials do this or that)? Concentating on the statements instead would make the conversation even more fruitful.
God bless you,

 2016/7/25 12:56
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5347
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote:"I do not fully understand the book of revelation. From all the books in in the bible that is the book that I understand the least. So when I am trying to interpret the text, I use the information from the other books of the bible that have been made clear to me."

Because of the genre of the book of Revelation (apocalyptic) I do not think it can be exegeted like other books. That is because the very nature of the apocalyptic genre is that it not be taken literally.

What parts can, and what parts cannot be taken literally are anybody's guess. Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to be literal.

Rather than trying to figure out every piece of language and imagery in this book, why not focus on this question: "what is it trying to tell us?"


_________________
Todd

 2016/7/25 13:16Profile









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Toszu,
That's fine. No offense intended, I'm just stating the obvious facts. Either way, scholars are split down the middle that Revelation was written before or after 70 AD. Nonetheless, we are getting (unnecessarily I think) outside the plain text again.

So, let's take your view & say it was written for them & not us. So are you saying the Wedding Supper of the Lamb has already happened? The Great White throne judgement (The Day of the Lord) has already happened? The devil has already been cast into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur (curious how he could then also be "roaming about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour"? & how "the whole world lies under the power of the evil one" if he's already been cast into hell & defeated & removed once & for all?)? And are you saying the New Heavens and earth & New Jerusalem have already come down from heaven? Etc. That certainly is the Hermeneutic you are applying to explain those few verses in Revelation 20 and if it's true, it should be true for the surrounding contextual narrative of Revelation 17-21 also? It's a complicated book at times overall for sure, but let's not then over complicate what is plainly written & gives us context. After all, Jesus ends this book (& the entire Bible) with a warning to all of us:

Revelation 22
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. "

Not at all saying you're doing that, but the warning is so strong & has such implications that being responsible and careful not to add or take away from it should be approached soberly, seriously, & responsibly (hermeneutically), no doubt. I don't think these one verses are complicated. I think we may not understand all that the Lord has not said, but we can stand on truth being conveyed here in its context based on what is said. I have found that no one arrives at Preterism, Total Absolute Historicism/Preterism, Complete Replacement Theology, and yes, even Amillineallism, etc. on their own through a plain reading of the scriptures. It's always "helped" along with the teachers of these "isms". Not that teachers, if good & Biblical, are a bad thing, but if their "new, amazing, secret knowledge of interpreting the Bible" is needed to understand the plain text & study of the Word, "something" is usually amiss. I believe that's the case here as Revelation 20 is plucked out of context, re-explained, placed in a different chronology then God put it in context, & if all that fails to convince, the "fall back position" is always, "I don't fully understand the entire book of Revelation...it's complicated..." Etc. Where else in the scriptures do we do this & it show in time & history it turns out well and accurate/true?

 2016/7/25 13:31





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