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Well brother, all I can say is God bless you and your wife and children. I will also say I know exactly where Tozsu is coming from and don't see any conflict with her understanding of the word as the Lord has given her.

 2016/7/26 21:10


This type of plain speaking from the scriptures on this matter is rare and usually not quickly accepted by the masses of even those within the church in the West (at least in America it isn't I know), but it is what it is. It's Bible. You can't get away from it (without twisting it or running from it) honestly & I applaud you for dealing with & speaking to it purely from the Word of God. After all "the fear of men and the praise of men, both are a snare" & "Let God be true and every man a liar", amen?
God Bless!

 2016/7/27 0:42

Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301

 Re: Praise of man and fear of man.

Amen! And thank you for the encouragement, it is genuinely appreciated.

May the Lord help us to submit to His word and not resort to twisting it to spare our flesh. He is both willing and able to enable us to meet it's demands by His Spirit through faith - the grace of life.

May God continue to encourage and strengthen you as you have strengthened and encouraged me today.

~ Forrest

 2016/7/27 11:51Profile


😊 that was refreshing to my soul! You have no idea! But ah, when we submit to the Lord, His Word, His ways & will (which are laid out for us in the word) & become "willing sacrifices, holy & pleasing to the Lord" (Romans 12) what a sweet fragrance of life in Christ springs forth from this truth & the Cross Demonstrated (not just theologized upon) brings! Beauty from ashes! Strength from weakness! Trust me, I was just as prewired in my flesh to not "live with my wife in a patient and understanding way" as she was to not "submit to your husband in all things". I am still not perfect in these things, but the Grace of God that comes when we submit to His Word & confess our failures rather than attempting to redefine them to meet our expectations, rather than the other way around! You have encouraged me brother!

 2016/7/27 13:13

Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301

 Re: "Submit to one another in the fear of Christ"

The more I think about it, the more clear it is that many are using the very instruction to recognize positional authority in the world and home and to submit to it; as one of their favorite verses (removed completely from it's immediate context, might I add) to use to teach and practice the exact opposite.

The "problem" that Paul seems to be trying to correct - or the potential peril that he is trying to avoid - is a thinking that says:

Premise: "We are all equal in God's eyes and brothers and sisters in Christ and, 'there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, male nor female' in Christ and we 'are all one in Christ Jesus'..."

[A very true premise, spiritually speaking and in a certain sense - see Gal. 3:28.]

Conclusion: " therefore we should all be equals in the world and we shouldn't have to submit to one another based on certain 'societal' or 'traditional' roles any longer."

[A faulty conclusion that Paul was apparently trying to correct/avoid by reaffirming that believers are to submit to "natural","traditional" or "earthly" authority.]

It's pretty scary that we could take a teaching that was written to refute a certain belief, and use it to support the very belief it contradicts...

I exhort all of those who are using the biblical imperative, "submit to one another in the fear of Christ", as proof that the wife is not to "be subject" to her own husband "in everything", to humbly and honestly pray and study this one out...

In love I warn you that you are likely twisting the scripture to support a worldly/rebellious/antichrist philosophy and sentiment which is at odds with the word of the LORD.

~ Forrest

 2016/7/27 15:29Profile


Exactly! And in fact, when discussing elsewhere not permitting a woman to teach or have authority over men (in the ekklesia), he actually goes on to make it so clear "a caveman could get it" (to quote Geico 😊).

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let them acknowledge the words I write to you are from God and not from man.." 1 Corinthians 14:37

And elsewhere (1 Timothy 2 I believe) goes into how it was Eve who was deceived when setting authority/headship/leadership parameters. And says Adam was created first & Woman was created for man (which lines up with the language of a helpmate).

As well as the clear language for what the older women should be teaching the younger (to love & submit to their husbands, love and care for their children, be keepers at home, meek & quiet spirit, etc.) in Titus 2.

Pretty clear.

Feminism has so many subtle "twists" and perversions of the Word of God and so many culturally deeply engrained roots that people just can't take it for what it is (& the Word for what it plainly says). Uprooting them is not a small thing, but totally necessary & mandated in the New Testament throughout. That BY NO MEANS takes away from the likewise scriptural mandate for husbands to love their wives and live with them in an understanding way, but both together are the scriptural picture & balance clearly laid out. Anyone who argues with that isn't arguing with man ultimately, but with God and His Word.

 2016/7/27 18:49

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2045

 Re: Ephesians 5:21

"Submit to one another in the fear of Christ."

The semantic meaning of the Greek word for “submit” almost exclusively refers to someone subjecting himself or herself to another who is in authority over that person. It is used elsewhere in the New Testament to refer to Jesus’ submission to His parents (Luke 2:51); of demons being subject to the apostles (Luke 10:17, 20); of citizens being subject to governing authorities (Rom. 13:1; Titus 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:13); of the universe being subject to Christ (1 Cor. 15:27; Eph. 1:22); of unseen powers being subject to Christ (1 Pet. 3:22); of Christ being subject to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:28); of wives being subject to their husbands (Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Pet. 3:5; Eph. 5:22, 24); of the church being subject to Christ (Eph. 5:24); of servants being subject to their masters (Titus 2:9; 1 Pet. 2:18); and of Christians being subject to God (Heb. 12:9; James 4:7. It is significant that none of these relationships are ever reversed. The word is never ‘mutual’ in its force; it is always one-directional in its reference to submission to an authority.

While in a fallen world, those in authority often abuse their position, it does not negate the necessity for proper authority. Those in authority also incur responsibility and accountability to God. To whom much is given, much will be required (Luke 12:48).

When those in authority live in the fear of Christ, they will not abuse their authority. They will exercise authority in love and out of a desire to seek the highest good of those under authority. They know that one day they will give an account to the Judge of all. So they view leadership not as an opportunity for personal advantage, but as a solemn responsibility to be exercised in the fear of Christ.

Surely, all defiance against God-given authority originates from Satan and puts those who resist authority in opposition to God Himself. With the exception that when God given authority tells us to disobey God, we must not submit. Piper & Grudem

 2016/7/27 18:57Profile


The fact that the unbelieving world would disagree with these plain passages of scripture & despise them, should be a clue I think to those in the church aligning themselves with their sentiments? 😊 It ain't popular, but neither is love your enemies, lay down & lose your life for Christ's sake, Jesus is the only way, etc.

 2016/7/27 18:58


I don't disagree with those sentiments of not abusing authority, not Lording it over them, not letting an ungodly leader tell me to do something God said not to, etc. Totally agree. It's just like how I am called by the Word to submit to the ruling & governing authorities & bosses (not just the kind, but even the forward/harsh) & with a humble & genuine heart UP TO the point they tell me to break a clear command of the Lord (& then of course God's law trumps men's directives). Totally agree.

I do think using one verse out of context that says to submit "to one another out of reverence for Christ" to say men should submit to their wives is not rightly dividing the Word in light of all the other CRYSTAL CLEAR scriptural commands concerning the man as the head under Christ in the Home (& even the ekklesia). And it's men's job to teach this to the ekklesia & older women in the faith's job to teach it to the younger women. This is crystal clear in light of all the NT doctrinal epistles (& what was obvious & understood in the OT).

God Bless!

The fact is we rarely get that far in our society. It's like telling children many parents beat their children so no children should take seriously the clear command to honor & obey their parents. It's a non-sequitur (mostly straw man) defense of a non-Biblical view/position

 2016/7/27 19:07


A submits to B means that if A and B have different will: A gives up his/her will and they both do the will of B. This is the case every time when someone submits to authority. But also when you give up your will so an other person's will can come to pass, you submit to that person. This act does not necessarily require the other person to have authority over you. It could be that you submitted because you are generous. You want to by vanilla ice cream to your son but he insists that he wants chocolate ice cream if you submit to his will and buy the chocolate ice cream does it mean that your son has authority over you? Of course not. Does being generous decrease your authority? I don't think so. Your authority is given to you by God, not by those who submit (or fail to submit) to you, and your occasional generous submission only strengthens your authority.(Note that generous submission is not the same as being constantly coerced by nagging individuals against our will) When you walk with God you will have authority, you do not need to take extra special care to enforce it.
Mutual submission:
Suppose that you want to go through the exit door after church and at the same time your christian brother (same level of authority, same age etc.) want to go through the same door. What happens is that neither of you will force his way out but both of you stop wanting to let the other go first. You submitted to each other in the fear of God. There was no authority involved in this submission (other than God's)
When you and your wife both want to eat that last piece of cake in the fridge, often - if you love each other- you both end up insisting that the other should eat it. What happened is that both you and your wife gave up your will so that the other can have his/her will. You submitted to each other in the fear of God.
To learn to submit to her husband belongs to the wife's sanctification. Her being or not being submissive to you doesn't make you a better or worse christian (remember she submits to the good and bad husband) You may look better in people's eyes with a submitting woman on your side, but God looks at your heart and actions.
In my opinion every christian should primarily take care of his/her own sanctification.
A good husband who encourages his wife to walk with God because he loves her and loves God and without the agenda of "..then she would always obey ME.." will be blessed with an orderly family, because his wife's submission to God INCLUDES her submission to the husband, and not the other way around.

 2016/7/28 3:04

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