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forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: "Rule Over"

I think the confusion lies in one's connotations of the words "rule over." If we understand all "ruling over" to be harsh lording and an unwilling obedience to a forceful dictator - then of course that is not the will of God for husbands and wives.

But: If 'ruling over' can be done in peace and gentleness and love, and if the subjection to the ruling of the other can likewise be done in obedience to God and love for Him and willfully (as is the case with Jesus' rule over us) - then we are saying essentially the same thing.

This does not minimize the command of God that women are to be subject to their husbands in everything. That is to say, he is to be the head - in authority and over the wife. That doesn't need to be harsh or exacting, but for a woman (or man for that matter) to resist this teaching is to reject and deny God's authority over her (at least in that area).

I look for the submitting to the teaching as a principle and heart condition. The practice takes grace and time to perfect. Just like I agree with the command to "walk in the Spirit" and to "be perfect" as my Heavenly Father is Perfect - though I often fail at the practice. At least the will is perfected and desires to fulfill the holy commandment. The flesh is now the culprit. Thus we learn to allow the Spirit of God to rule over us by resting in Him and thereby yielding ourselves to Christ to serve Him.

The problem in the previous threads (in my estimation) arises when brothers and sisters deny that it is the will of God for a wife to 'be subject' to her husband 'in everything.' That is what is concerning, for that is a distortion of the word of God.

So I agree that the husband is not to be brutal and harsh, but to 'nourish and cherish' his wife - but she is commanded of God to arrange herself under him in the Lord nonetheless.

It is not my duty to exact subjection out of my wife, but I do teach and assert that the LORD requires it of her and seek to make that as easy a task as possible.

The below passage reveals that Christ 'rules over' and He has people (really, "all things") in subjection to Him - and this doesn't necessarily make Him harsh or unloving.

I see those who willfully subject themselves to Him in love and grace, and those (His enemies) who will one day be forcefully subjected to Him.

For those that are His, it is a willful subjection and a ruling over in love and life (not to mention that He is God and thus has an inherent right to rule, however He chooses, really - but thank God it's not His Nature to be contrary to love):

Quote:
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET."

But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
~ 1 Cor. 15:23-28



And again:

Quote:
"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved* to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."
~ Romans 6:22



The "enslaved" here is "douloó" and Strong's Concordance gives the meaning: "to enslave, bring under subjection."

This is the ideal subjection, the one that God desires - "love-slaves." God desires that the wife's love for Christ and His love in her would cause her to willfully subject herself to her husband in the Lord (which is truly subjecting herself to Him more fully). Just as the husband nourishing and cherishing his wife is to subject himself to the Lord more fully.

But insofar that we fall short, we need commandments and thus the apostle and "beloved brother" Paul (as well as Peter) admonish women to ensure that they are submitting to their husbands. Just as he has to admonish men to love their wives as Christ loved the church: self sacrificially and to death - and with an everlasting (and all-consuming) love (under God).


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 13:03Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3283
Texas

 Re:

Forests, the reason "YOU" can't relate to my post is because you just joined a few months ago, anyone that has been here for years, probably know exactly what I meant. Also, please don't scrutinize my posts, when I have read some threads here lately that you have participated in, that probably have made the devil rejoice. Also, my email is in my profile if you feel the need to correct, you don't have to do it in front of the whole world and make us both look stupid, how edifying is that?


_________________
Bill

 2016/7/26 13:14Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: you don't have to do it in front of the whole world

Quote:
by MrBillPro on 2016/7/26 10:14:24

...Also, my email is in my profile if you feel the need to correct, you don't have to do it in front of the whole world and make us both look stupid, how edifying is that?



I agree. But don't you see the irony here?

You publicly made an unedifying remark in a public forum, so I replied. I did not rebuke or correct your doctrine or practice, I merely questioned your motive for and/or intent in making a comment that didn't seem to offer anything edifying to the discussion itself - one that seemed only to scoff and not to bless. That was it.

We are all agreeing to put our input out there and submit it to the "others" and let them "judge" (1 Cor 14), no?

My email is also available in case you would like to attempt a civil and edifying discussion of personal/private matters. I have no such desire at the time.


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 13:35Profile









 Re:

Forrest, God commanded the wife to submit her husband (good or bad husband) but this command does not mean that God commanded the husband to rule. I see nowhere in the bible saying "you husbands rule your wife really well" instead it said love your wife. Christians who are ruled by god do not need to rule each other but love each otber and submit to each other. In summary the command submit does not necessarily mean that the other was commanded to rule. Take an example from the traffic rules: the yield sign means that I have to yield, but the fact that others have a yield sign does not mean that ican enforce my right of way even if they did not yeald. If I would try that I would be guilty of causing injury.

 2016/7/26 13:55
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Husbands/Fathers "Ruling"

Quote:
I see nowhere in the bible saying "you husbands rule your wife really well" instead it said love your wife.



What about this requirement for an elder/overseer?

"He must be one who *manages* his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)..."
~ 1 Timothy 3:4-5

The word rendered "manages" here, and as "ruleth" in the KJV, is:

*proistémi: to put before, to set over, to rule*


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 15:18Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Head vs. Ruler

Quote:
"...but this command does not mean that God commanded the husband to rule."



I disagree. Let me make my case. We do agree that God says that man is the head of the woman, right? I assume so, so let me build on that premise/foundation.

In Exodus (18:25) we read:

"And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads* over the people, rulers** of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens."

The word rendered "head" here is:
*rosh: head

(This same word is used in the sense of "heads of their fathers houses", "chief/captain" and similar ways in Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, etc, etc..)

The word rendered "ruler" here is:
**sar: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince

The word "head" here is synonymous with and used used interchangeably with "ruler" in this verse and really all throughout the Old Testament.

And in the New as well. What does the word of God mean when it says:

"[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church..."
~ Colossians 1:15-18a

In what way is Christ Head of the church? As ruler, no?

Here is another example:

"...which [God the Father] brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."
~ Ephesians 1:20-23

And then there is this, in the word of God:

"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church..."
~ Ephesians 5:22a

And:

"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands...For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord*, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear."
~ 1 Peter 3:1a,5-6

*kurios: lord, master

So, if the word of God says we are the head - does it mean that God expects us to "rule" or "manage" our homes and have authority? I believe the answer is "certainly yes" and I believe this is clear from scripture.

Now, can a man exact obedience from his wife? No. But could she be held accountable/rebuked for willful sin if she rejects this commandment and goes on in perpetual insubordination? I would say so. I imagine no Christian husband would wish this on his wife - to be humiliated in front of the brothers/elders/church - but the word of God may require it in severe enough cases.

So my question to to you is, how is a man being "head" of his wife any different from his being her "ruler/authority" - biblically speaking (keeping in mind that Christ is "Head" of the church and the wife is to submit to her husband *as unto the Lord.*)?

On the subject "enforcing rule":

As I said before, I cannot exact obedience, but I can teach it as a requirement of God and have grace, patience and mercy/understanding in the sanctification process (i.e: Love my wife as Christ loves the church).

Paul instructs Titus that the older women are to encourage the younger women to be "subject to their own husbands" ("so that the word of God will not be dishonored").

How do you suppose Titus was to instruct the older women to encourage the younger women to be subject to their husbands if he were to never teach them this principle or admonish them to encourage the younger women in it?

My point is: somewhere along the way it was a man's duty to teach and instruct the women that she is to 'be subject' to her husband. Can we make them obey? No. That would either make us abusive or God. And God we are definitely not.

So we love them like Christ loves the church and teach them the truth, pray for them, help them, and bear long with their frailty and failure and sin - and try to captivate their hearts and will with our self sacrificial love. That is how we "enforce" such a commandment/ordinance of the Lord.

Blessings, brother.


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 16:11Profile









 Re:

Forrest, I made my case before, I have nothing to add, or take away, the answers to your questions can be found included in my previous posts.
All is well if we walk in the spirit.

Ephesians 5:17-21King James Version (KJV)

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 2016/7/26 17:46
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Quote:
by Tozsu on 2016/7/26 14:46:39

Forrest, I made my case before, I have nothing to add, or take away, the answers to your questions can be found included in my previous posts.



I don't think you have...you assert that to be "head of" is different than to "rule", and I contested your position. You are yet to show that the bible either:

A) Condemns all "ruling" and/or only speaks of "ruling" in a negative way - or,
B) Makes a clear difference between "headship" and "ruling/authority over".

And it is not wise to seek to cancel whole passages of apostolic instruction (by the Spirit) by citing one verse that you interpret as a contradiction. To do so is to say that there is a contradiction in the word of God - and thus to imply there is contradiction/imperfection in God. Either they agree or God is the responsible for confusion/disorder. It is our duty to, by the Spirit, reconcile them and thus fully understand the mind of Christ in any particular matter.

I have at least two explanations of the "submitting to one another" that don't contradict with "Wives, submit to your husbands" and "wives, be subject to your husbands in everything".

One is that the submission to one another is detailed in the following verses, and it follows certain guidelines:

Quote:
"...and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church...

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her...So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies...

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right...

"Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart...

"And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him."



The apostle instructs us to submit to "one another" in the fear of Christ, and then goes on to expound on who should submit to who and how.

The idea is quite the opposite than the more Egalitarian brothers (and sisters) use it. They to basically eliminate positional authority in the home and society, but Paul to reaffirm it and to show that submission to it in general (under God), as well as the proper use of it (in the case of Husbands, Fathers, and Masters) is to live and walk "in the fear of Christ."

My other explanation is that if my wife is operating by the Spirit and it is thus Christ and His authority she is operating in in that moment (for instance, a prophetic word, uttered under the influence of the Holy Spirit) - then I must submit to/fear Him in and through her. This is primarily applicable to and in the context of the assembly.

Does this make sense, brother?


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 18:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Does this make sense, brother?


You did not supply who you were quoting so just in case, Tozsu is a sister.

Quote:
My other explanation is that if my wife is operating by the Spirit and it is thus Christ and His authority she is operating in in that moment (for instance, a prophetic word, uttered under the influence of the Holy Spirit) - then I must submit to/fear Him in and through her. This is primarily applicable to and in the context of the assembly.



Not at home? Is Jesus not able to operate through your wife at home? You don't submit to Jesus operating in and through your wife at home? Does it have to be a prophetic word? What if she is just walking in the Spirit as a blood bought saint of God?

Are you in a Brethren Assembly? Just curious, because I know this type of statement and thinking is prevalent with them.

 2016/7/26 18:37
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Julius21

Quote:
by Julius21 on 2016/7/26 15:37:00

Tozsu is a sister.



My apologies, sister.

Quote:
Not at home? Is Jesus not able to operate through your wife at home? You don't submit to Jesus operating in and through your wife at home? Does it have to be a prophetic word? What if she is just walking in the Spirit as a blood bought saint of God?



There is a lot going on here, so let me break it down and seek to answer you.

Quote:
Not at home?



I guess if she was moved of the Spirit and operating under His direct influence in the course of day to day life, then yes, also at home. But this would still seem to be in the context of spiritual edification/instruction/revelation. Because, and to answer your next question:

Quote:
Is Jesus not able to operate through your wife at home?



Yes, He is. But He is not contrary to His word and has already said in His word that He works in the home(in the natural managing of it) in and through the head, the man. So, He will keep His word and use that structure. Now, in a spiritual sense, men and women are equal and He sure can and will use women to "pray or prophesy" - as His word declares.

Which also answers the next question:

Quote:
You don't submit to Jesus operating in and through your wife at home?



Sure I do, if and when she is operating in the Name of Christ and not contrary to His word - as I explained above.

Quote:
Does it have to be a prophetic word?



Not necessarily - but that seems to be one primary way that the Lord would use her in my life and the life of the local body (in accordance with His word). That and prayer. I'm sure there are some others, but they are similar in nature and I was merely giving an example - hence the "for instance" right in front of the "prophetic word".

Quote:
What if she is just walking in the Spirit as a blood bought saint of God?



Fantastic! Amen! Then she will be subjecting herself to me in the management/ruling of the family in the fear of Christ and in accordance with His word. And in spiritual matters, she will exercise godly humility, a quiet and peaceable spirit and the decorum that the word of God prescribes for a woman and wife to walk in - and I (hopefully) will recognize it as the word of the Lord and not the word of man (or a woman) and submit myself to Him in her in the fear of Christ.

Otherwise, the way I "Submit to" her in the fear of Christ is explained in the above passage - patience, love, understanding, not being bitter, nourishing and cherishing her - treating her how Christ treats me, knowing that I am under His Authority and will stand before Him and give an account one day (and to whom much [authority] is given, of him much [submission and godly conduct] will be required).

Quote:
Are you in a Brethren Assembly?



No. Never even visited one. Remember, it is the word of God and Christ that I am seeking to obey and conform to - in the fear of Christ. Not a denomination or my "own understanding."

Blessings, brother(?)


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/7/26 18:56Profile





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