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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is this what God intended?

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 Re: Travus

Brother I would gladly sit under the teaching of the man you mentioned. Would that God would raise up more Spirit-filled leaders as this brother. But then as the times grow darker I do believe there will be a Spirit-filled remnant that God will bring forth. Our brother Frank writes so much about this.

 2016/7/12 21:01

Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632


Brothers, We Are Not Professionals by John Piper


 2016/7/12 21:44Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1976

 Re: Uncalled "professionals"

I agree with what you have written twayneb. A man deciding he wants to be a worker or pastor as a good career choice is a different thing than responding to God's calling and becoming a son who serves versus a "professional." It's just hard for me to embrace the notion that if one believes he has a true calling from God and believes a formal education in the Scriptures would help him in fulfilling his calling then he is somehow suspect because he chooses to enter a seminary environment. But you're likely not saying that I just sensed that thought being advanced is some of the statements being made in the overall discussion. I may have heard things wrongly. Yet even strong men of God like John Piper served for 33 years as Chancellor of Bethlehem Bible College and Seminary in Minneapolis. I am convinced he and other seminary leaders understand the primary need for a genuine calling on an individual and that the Word is best ministered from a strong and vibrant relationship with Jesus.

So last night we had a minister in the church who has a calling to minister words of prophecy and personal encouragement and a small group of about 20 met with him. He was very laid back and ordinary and just started talking for a while and then began to minister accurate words to the people there and was very encouraging in his strong word to each person that God really has no outstanding issues with people if they are trying to walk with Him and present their lives to Him. Very good and encouraging and from what I could ascertain he has no seminary education. He was just called from God out of the body and responded and as He was faithful God was in turn faithful to anoint and equip him in increasing measure. I had absolutely no problem with him and received a accurate and encouraging word from him myself. Yet there are seminary trained people who can do the same thing I believe. In whatever calling you can discern as being from God then go for it. Yet I don't believe a degree of education automatically means one is destined to take on the air of a professional. Even Art Katz went down to St. Paul, MN and obtained a M. A. degree in Theology from Luther Seminary in St. Paul. It didn't make him a professional but was done because he sensed a lack in his life and ministry and thought a bit of formal training would help.

Nuf from here. I was completely okay with the non seminarian prophet in our midst last night. No problem at all.

David Winter

 2016/7/13 7:37Profile

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa


To throw something into the bush.
Quote from Eugene Peterson

The vocation of pastor(s) has been replaced by the strategies of religious entrepreneurs with business plans.


 2016/7/13 8:16Profile


Then brothers if I may look at this from a different angle. Will the existing American evangelical structure endure the fires of persecution? I speak of the existing one man congregate model. I speak of the traditional biblical education of a four-year seminary. I speak up learning systematic theology in a classroom. And everything that entails this existing structure. Will it endure the fires of persecution.

If we believe persecution is coming to America and indeed it is already here. Then the question needs to be asked will the American church endure the increased persecutions.

If I look at the history of countries where there have been established religious structures. I would have to say the answer is no. I do not believe that the American evangelicals structure will endure persecution. Indeed she may very well stagger and fall under persecution.

It seems to me that the need of the hour is to encourage believers in Jesus in America to go deeper in a faith Walk With Jesus. It would seem the need of the hour is to teach a crucified Life for the resurrected Christ to live in us. As the persecutions increased I believe this will be a driving dynamic for the formation of house churches. This will be an environment in which the Holy Spirit can truly operate in. I think the fellowship meetings that Greg is encouraging across the nation is a step in the right direction. There will be a need for more such meetings formed by the Holy Spirit to give encouragement to one another to go deeper in the things of Christ. To lay down our lives so that His life will be in us.

The established evangelical church in America will not endure the onslaught of persecution. Many coming out of seminary environments will not endure the onslaught of persecution. Indeed it will be the religious evangelical structure that will betray the remnant of believers to the prosecuting authorities.

For sure God will call forth a remnant out of the established evangelical structure to follow Him. But this will be those believers who understand the way of the cross and embrace it. And they are willing to lay down their lives for Jesus.

During the Communist takeover of China. There were those evangelical pastors who capitulated to the Communists. Some of these were trained in evangelical seminaries. They had fine theology. But they were not taught to lay down everything at the cross of Jesus and to take it up and follow Him. They fell. And I fear that many American seminarians in the evangelical structure will fall. But in the tragedy of persecution God has birthed a triumphant vibrant house church movement in China.

Religion cannot endure persecution. Often religion will be the driving force of persecution. Ultimately it was not the Romans who put Jesus to death. But it was the religious leadership of his day. And so history teachers that pattern. The Catholics persecuted those who held to the teachings of Christ up through the Reformation and beyond. But then the Protestants turned around and persecuted the Anabaptists, the simple Saints who loved the truth of Jesus. Particularly as it regarded the baptism of believers only. Again religion has been the persecutor of the remnant.

I pray that God will call forth a remnant out of the religious structure in America. A remnant that will cling to the cross of Christ. A remnant that will live out the crucified Life of Christ so that His resurrection life will live in them. For this will be the true church that will endure in North America.

Simply my thoughts.

 2016/7/13 8:27

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 941
Johannesburg, South Africa


I hear you Blaine.

I pray we will be part of the remnant which presses in and on!


 2016/7/13 8:47Profile

 Re: Travis & JFW

Very well said! I totally and whole heartedly agree! I give the benefit of the doubt in that regards to Blaine as well. My only "concern" was that without a little more clarification, some (even many, especially the young in the faith without a good working knowledge of the Word of God & years walking with the Lord) would misunderstand and run with something from what he said (and didn't say/clarify). I hope that makes sense? 😊
God Bless!

 2016/7/13 9:37


Yes, Most will not make it within that current religious professional framework. Lord willing, God will use the persecution to wake up some who are genuinely His but backslidden/apathetic/distracted to a new level in their walk and ministry, but yes, the charlatans & career professionals will be exposed. The whole system model is mostly messed up to begin with (which is why we left it years ago for the house fellowship model, and even those can get off track of not focused rightly, but that's another subject). I "cut my spiritual teeth" as a newborn babe with mostly just the Word of God in a prison cell for almost 2 years. Fasting, praying, reading the Word, evangelizing & walking with God. I praise God for that time in establishing the foundation for my walk & calling right off. Lots of different "flavors" of ministers came in from various theological persuasions/denominations, but I just tested it all up against the Word. And when I got out, I knew I was called (not to pastoral ministry, but called how I am called & gifted nonetheless) so I did what I thought I was supposed to do (& God led me - it was still part of His sovereign plan) & put myself through Bible College/Seminary. Most of it was really a waste of time & money in large part, but some of it was really beneficial. "Jewish Roots of the Faith" was definitely the class I remember most & was the most beneficial because the class & teacher were so good. Anyways, I have to return to the simplicity of the Word, but the fact is, if I don't know and misunderstand the original Words Jesus used when He spoke because it was "over/mis-translated" then how is it not beneficial & right to look it up in the original Greek (or Hebrew if OT) & see what was really being said? This is a good thing. God desires for us to walk in truth & riht understanding & such is not "unspiritual" but quite the opposite. To walk in Error & continue when such information is available to us trough study is...well...foolish. "Well Jesus didn't attend synogauge school....." Yes, but he no doubt knew the scriptures, he no doubt grew up knowing & understanding Hebrew, Aramaic (most scholars think was spoken in NT time Israel), & likely Greek. He no doubt understood the Hebraic Cultural symbolism, euphemisms, & culturally common examples used in scripture as it was written by people in His day first for Those in His day (& beyond of course). But we don't. So, we must study & open up our hearts humbly to mine & seek the Lord on such truths. Such is not inherently wrong, but if done for the sake of understanding the Word of God better, then we are honoring God, His Word, the ministry, etc. not despising it. Sure, where commentaries are concerned we must be careful. I use commentaries sometimes, but I remember at best they are just commentaries. Maybe I gain insight I didn't have on a matter or maybe I say "I don't know about that. Could just be their opinion?" We each have to evaluate these things on our own. But studying the Word, etymology & history is a good thing. Let us each be convinced of things before we presume to stand in the place of a "teacher" in any respect and know that greater/stricter judgement awaits those who teach. Let us not take this lightly or flippantly. Whether in a pastoral "career" position, leading Internet forum threads as "experts" or "teachers" on a matter, or whatever. We all will stand before God and give account for every word. Sobering no doubt. Without a true calling from God, Semonary or not seminary is irrelevant. One must be called not by a profession but by the Living God. If this was your intention in your OP and main point - brother, I wholeheartedly agree. Totally!
God Bless!

 2016/7/13 10:03


by twayneb on 2016/7/12 20:07:21

Of all of the early NT church leaders, Paul (apostle), Luke (evangelist), and Matthew (apostle) are the only ones that I know of that had any record of any form of formal education. Paul was the only one with what we might call a seminary degree (trained by Gamaliel). No one would ever claim that these men were less anointed or less used by the Holy Spirit due to their education.

And Paul would say (and did) that only revelation from the Holy Spirit benefited him and not his religious education.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

The knowledge of Christ, he learned by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Once you start to receive revelation you realize you don't need a school of religious study but rather the "school of the Spirit".

 2016/7/13 10:34

Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1027


Bro Bear,
I except this as a NUDGING or a WAKE -UP call to us,to look back and
see how far we have come away from the first or real intention of God,...
before the real time of SHAKING comes upon us.

Has the little foxes,spoiled some vines ?
* We know,it is The Vine that supplies the branches.
Thank you for reminding us.


 2016/7/13 10:39Profile

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