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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Ministry of the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

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 Re:

Sorry for the delay.

I am afraid that we are not in agreement on what baptism in the Spirit is though we are in agreement about His work in us being about making us holy.

But you are saying that the baptism will gradually make us holier in this life, if l am correct. The scriptures however do not say that death finally makes us holy. In fact it says that as a tree falls, so it lies. It also says that death is our enemy.

If we look at the disciples after they were baptised in the Spirit, we can expect to also receive the same tremendous transformation, from being weak in faith and dull in understanding, to being absolute warriors for Christ and with
great wisdom and being perfect witnesses for Him.

In an instant.

Reformed theology says that they were unsaved up to that point, but that is not feasible to my mind, nor to holiness teaching. They had left all and called Him Lord.

Many have the same testimony, that they received a baptism which completed the work of sanctification in them and thereafter were given power to be in perfect obedience with Him and hear His voice clearly within, whereas before they had to depend on the written word alone apart from a few odd occasions where they did hear Him.

That longing inside of us to be made clean, is also a witness to thus great work of entire sanctification or baptism in the a Spirit.

 2016/7/3 9:16
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: The Ministry of the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

Quote:
by Zac Poonen
Don’t be satisfied with any cheap counterfeit. I told the Lord when I was a young man that I would never be satisfied with a counterfeit and would be willing to wait ten years if necessary to get the genuine experience. It was worth waiting. When you are genuinely baptised in the Spirit, it will change your whole way of life.


I love this quote because Zac grew up in India where all through his life there has been all kinds of counterfeit and if you listen to any of his sermons at all, you hear him stress the genuine move of the Holy Spirit!

It's kind of along the lines of the man of God I was converted under, Bro Herman. People would ask him why he never preached about hell and he would say, "Because I'm not going there." :) He never avoided it but he didn't make long, drawn out sermons on hell and constantly zoom in on it. Zac Poonen reminds me of Bro Herman.

Verse 13 is the most important!!

Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Thank you Greg, for sharing this from Zac!!

(edited for clarity)


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Lisa

 2016/7/3 11:45Profile









 Re:

"I am afraid that we are not in agreement on what baptism in the Spirit is though we are in agreement about His work in us being about making us holy."

I do not know what the baptism is, I am in the process of finding it out, so I can not possibly agree or disagree with you about it. In this process I prefer to start at the scriptures as it is the root of all the doctrines that were derived later. In this thread I quoted two verses wanting to know whether they refer to the baptism or something else. I still don't know the answer.
The word gradual is not the best to describe our sanctification, it is rather continuous, after each trial or revelation or answered prayer we become suddenly much more mature, and perhaps our first bigger revelation makes us feel that we passed from defeat to a victory over sin. The bible talks about weak and stronger christians and that the stronger should help the weak.
In the Pilgrim's Progress John Bunyan describes the path of a Christian without specifically mentioning the baptism, the main character is strong from the beginning to the end but only when he trusts in God and keeps the word in his bosom. I can say that he had victory over sin but he is still prone to deception even towards the end of his walk if he forgets to walk on the narrow road...
I see Bunyan's description as according to the Bible. I don't know if the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the doctrine of being born again, and only the special circumstances in the time of the apostles make it a separate event.
Please don't lump me with reformed theology in this, because as far as I know they don't teach the reality of the born again experience.
In summary, maybe we are talking about the same thing, some call it being truly born again others call it the baptism in the holy Spirit.
This is my opinion at this certain point of my search, and I am still open for strong evidence from the scriptures for baptism in the holy spirit as a separate event outside that of those who were believers before the first coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost.


Edited to add: I know reformed christians who are born again and have the Spirit, but they don't call it that. God sees our heart, our theology does not define us.

 2016/7/3 13:15









 Re:

"Romans 8:9King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Does Paul speak here about the baptism or something else?"

If this is the verse you meant, I believe that Paul was saying that the Spirit dwells in us if we are baptised in Him but I also believe that there is a time when the Spirit is working in us before that. I cannot find another one, only the question: "WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT?"

In answer to that, it means to me the occasion when the Spirit fell with fire on me as I had lain everything on the altar of my heart and immediately after, I found I had a pure heart. The Holy Spirit comes to make us holy.

There was a process beforehand but there had to come a time when I had to die to self sin and the world. There is a process of maturing later but the holiness thing must be completed. it is like saying we are a little bit pregnant.

John Bunyan actually described the process of coming to the cross again. The man was called Christian from the start. One day he came to the foot of the cross after a long trial and journey. This point of time is called entering the land of Cannan or His rest and is for Christians not the unsaved.
It is also know as the second blessing.

The holiness movement nor indeed Calvinism did not get very far into Eastern Europe. When I was in Germany nobody knew much about Calvin, only Luther.

 2016/7/4 7:49
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Good discussion here so far sisters. Though the people here are almost close to opposite end of pole there is a respect for each one's faith.

My advice to sister Zsuzsanna will be to not close the door for a possible baptism of Holy Spirit. Yes it is possible to have a bad experience of false imagination of Baptism of Holy Spirit, but that does not mean there is no genuine. The reason there is more counterfeit baptism today in Christianity is the value of real one is so high. People only counterfeit valuble things like Currency etc!

Baptism of HS does exactly as Jesus promised in Acts 1:8. We will receive power to live as a witness for Jesus. I came from an Indian Hindu family. Hence the Baptism of Holy Spirit really gave me the power to stand as a Christian against all the opposition I faced in my life.

I received Baptism of HS at a time when I did not deserve it. When I hit the rock bottom in my Christian life. I almost gave up. But Baptism of Holy Spirit was give to me at that time so that I now have nothing to boast. I am absolutely certain that I received it purely by his mercy, there was no merit in me at all!

One main difference I found was the Bible became a different book. Scriptures just opened to me. I also received power to say NO to my flesh which I never had before.

But I still seek to be continuously filled with the spirit. TO be filled with the Holy Spirit is an everyday experience that we only receive when we are under complete submission to God and seek it everyday.


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Sreeram

 2016/7/4 8:08Profile









 Re:

. Brenda,
The other one was Cornelius and his family, they received the baptism at conversion. (I remembered quoting it but I only referred to it)
John Bunyans Christian arrived to the cross where he finally lost all the burden from his back and these were the sins of his old life. Sounds like being born again to me.
On the day I gave my life to Jesus, He forgave all my sins. My church taught that the baptism in the holy spirit and full bodily healing was included in the atonement, so I asked for these also in my prayer. I did not receive the bodily healing and I thought I did not receive the HS that night.
I was like Cornelius I prayed and fasted 3 days before that event. From the next morning the HS was with me and leading me.
There was a bottom also for me some 20 years later, but that was because of deception. And there was a coming of boldness as well but that was because of good teaching of the bible, and vital personal revelation from the HS.
Thanks sree for your comment. I am coming close to the conclusion that my tongue speaking was not from God, however I do not seek the baptism in the H S because I think I had it from the beginning or at least I have it now. I surrendered my will several times to God and experienced strength and comfort from God after each one. It was encouraging to read your words about the infillings of the Spirit...
I appreciate brother Zack's teaching about the baptism but do not 100% agree with it.
Acts 2:37-38King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:13King James Version (KJV)

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Edited to add: these verses suggest that the baptism in the HS comes at conversion.

 2016/7/4 11:01









 Re:

Sree said: "One main difference I found was the Bible became a different book. Scriptures just opened to me."
I had this very same experience the day after my conversion.

 2016/7/4 11:16









 Re:

I found this article that I more agree with, until more convincing scriptures brought up supporting the other view.

http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t004.html


 2016/7/4 11:48









 Re:

Dear Tozsu

"2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."

I believe he was already a believer when he was baptised in the Spirit.

Regarding Pilgrims Progress, the events leading up to the foot of the cross ie:

The First Stage. —Christian’s deplorable condition—Evangelist directs him—Obstinate and Pliable—Slough of Despond—Worldly Wiseman—Mount Sinai—Conversation with Evangelist

The Second Stage. —The Gate—conversation with Good-Will—the Interpreter’s House—Christian entertained—the sights there shown him

The Third Stage. —Loses his burden at the Cross

Speak to me of the time when I became in a deplorable condition and in the slogh of despond, due to my inability as a believer to be the Christian I saw in the NT. I began to bear a heavy burden of sin on my back and no preacher could tell me how to remove it. Legalism.

The unsaved man does not have a heavy burden of sin. I certainly thought that I was as good as anyone before I came to Christ. You do not even know what sin is.

Then I found guidance and came once more to the foot of the cross to see myself crucified with Christ and my life changed drastically, much more than the times of refreshing I had known previously and signs and wonders followed me. It was like night compared to day. At last I could walk in utter obedience and had a pure heart although I had been a believer for 17 years with a very strong testimony from atheism.

"37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 12:13King James Version (KJV)

I believe that it was the baptism of the Spirit talked about which saves us from sin. Most do not get delivered from sin when they find Christ.

My advice is not to quell that longing that you have even though you may not know what you are longing for and let the Lord guide you.

Thanks Sree.

 2016/7/4 14:05









 Re:

I found this article that I more agree with, until more convincing scriptures brought up supporting the other view.

http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t004.html

I don't think anyone can be a christian before his sins are fotgiven, that event is also signified in the water baptism which is accepted as a starting point in christian walk based on the bible. You are right I was not godly liike Cornelius before my conversion, but I did pray.
Can we be called Christians when we are on our way to seek Jesus but haven't yet met Him personally and received the forgivness of our sins?
Your advice is very encouraging, that's what I will do, seek God's will in everything, and follow after him, regardless of wheter it is called baptism or not.

 2016/7/4 14:44





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