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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Questions About the Doctrine Called "Soul Sleep"

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

As I was teaching a Sunday School class recently, someone asked me about my view on the rapture (specifically the typical idea of a pre-trib rapture). I stated that I could find no scripture that clearly taught the idea. I could find several verses that, given a prior commitment to the idea, could be interpreted to fit the idea, but I cannot find one shred of clear Biblical teaching to support the doctrine. So, for now, I had to tell them that I did not know.

I got to know a fellow teacher at my high school recently and he and I quickly began talking about our common faith in Jesus Christ. The conversation was uplifting...until he very pointedly asked me my opinion about the rapture. I told him that I could not find it clearly taught in scripture, and the conversation quickly went sour. He could not accept the fact that I was undecided on the issue, and felt that I had not come to a deep enough understanding of scripture to be settled on the issue. He was very upset that I said I could not find the doctrine clearly taught in scripture. He informed me that he had been reading the Bible and that God had given him special revelation about the rapture. He said that since God had told him that there was a rapture, that I was simply wrong and uninformed. I told him that I did not see the issue as one of the same weight as the doctrine of salvation by grace, the virgin birth, etc.. He informed me that I was sadly mistaken and that this was one of the most important doctrines in scripture. He was very emotional about it and could not accept that I was not and furthermore did not want to argue the matter.

I agree with questionmark in that I cannot find any absolute teaching about the matter. I can find a host of scriptures that can be used to support either viewpoint.

I do see two parallel discussions going on here. First, does the soul of man sleep until the judgement, or is the person conscious. Second, does a person proceed directly to heaven or to hell when he dies. These, in my view, are two different discussions.

I think the reference from Revelation where the souls are under the altar seems to indicate that there is consciousness. However, there is room to doubt that interpretation. Remember, the blood of Abel cried to God from the ground. It was not that his blood literally had a voice. It could be the same with these souls. Look at their location, under the altar. The altar is a place of sacrifice, not a place of reward. And the blood of the sacrifice ran off the altar. So it could be that this scripture is using the same type of language as we see with the blood of Abel crying out.

I do have to admit that there are several scriptures that use the term sleep in reference to death. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep, and had to clarify that he was dead. So the idea of the soul sleeping until judgement is not one that is scripturally strange or heretical.

I think it would be interesting to have everyone simply post any scriptures that seem to speak one way or the other (preferably without much commentary).


_________________
Travis

 2016/6/23 15:26Profile









 Re:

Matthew 17:1–8
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, aI will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

So here we have Moses waking up from his soul sleep in order to converse with Jesus. And Elijah did not wake up because he never died, and yet they appeared
to be of the same substance to the disciple.

Did Moses go back to soul sleep afterwords and become a soul sleeping man again ?

In I Kings 17:20-22: “When the widows son died Elijah cried out three times to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. Notice that it came in him. This is not just breath as one can make air go back into someone who just died and they would not revive, this says the soul of the child, it is something he possessed that had left him.

The child's soul was separate from his physical body when he died as this scripture clearly indicates. Did his soul go to sleep in one place and his physical in some other location until Elijah prayed?

One will never read of a soul being resurrected from a physical death. Rather, bodies are resurrected from physical death (Matthew 27:52).Why? Because a soul does not literally die.

The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body.
The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity.
For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

 2016/6/23 18:16
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Mark 12:25-27 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise; ...

John 11:14-15 These things said He: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may wake him out of sleep...Lazarus is dead.

I Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Just a note: The term raised from or resurrection of the dead occurs a copious number of times in the New Testament. I have to question...are all of these verses only referring the reuniting of the spirit with the body, or does it mean the actual reviving of a soul (or spirit depending on how you see it)? Just a thought as I saw the references. 1 Cor. 15:35 seems to indicate that giving life to the body and the resurrection of the dead are different. Notice the wording. But some man will say, how are the dead raised up? And with what body to they come.

1 Thess. 4:13-14 But I would not have ye ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

A thought occurs to me here as well. We know from Ecclesiastes that when a man dies, his spirit returns to the father. This verse comments on that saying that He will bring those with Him at His returning.


Just a note on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16). I do not believe it can be used to make a doctrinal statement about heaven, hell, or the state of the soul after death. It is a parable, and the story is meant to make a totally different point, that the religious Jews would not believe in Christ as Messiah, even thought He rose from the dead. To say it teaches on the condition of the soul, to me, would be like saying that the parable of the sower is a doctrinal lesson in middle eastern agriculture or that the parable of the farmer who hired men late in the day and paid them all the same teaches us how to run a business and pay our employees. I think the parable of Lazarus uses the two locations and the gulf between as a vehicle to tell a story to make the real point about the Jew's rejection of Jesus.


_________________
Travis

 2016/6/23 19:05Profile









 Re:

Questionmark,

If I can say, it is you who seems to be bold. If the Pharisees and the Sadducees, each with their scribes and scholars could not agree if there was even life after death, then how can you state some kind of bold truth on the subect from the OT. If Jesus says to the thief that this day you will be with me in paradise then this is the TRUTH speaking truth. Every other scripture must be interpreted by what the Word made flesh said. Surely you would not argue that there were men in the OT who knew more than Jesus did. So,if we take the unambiguous words of Jesus in this case then all we have to do is work back in the light of what He said. Anything is is an act of futility and perhaps pride......bro Frank

 2016/6/23 19:22









 Re:

Sorry Frank, You only assume Jesus said this because you come to the scripture with your preconceived idea. Your preconceived idea causes you to assume that the comma is by divine origin. However, the comma was placed there by man who also assumed the same as you.

The way you read it: Verily I say unto you, Today you shall be with me in paradise.

The way I read it: Verily I say to you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

If you can prove to me that the comma was placed there by God, I will then take your words to heart.

And yes, I do tend to give weight to the Old Testament. Cause unlike what you apparently believe, I do believe that the Old Testament was just as much as inspired by the Holy Spirit as anything Jesus said. So I am pretty confident that the same spirit who spoke through Jesus would not say something that contradicts what the same spirit already established through the Old Testament writers. If believing this is what you call being prideful, then I guess I am prideful.

 2016/6/23 20:20
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

travis wrote:

"1 Thess. 4:13-14 But I would not have ye ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

A thought occurs to me here as well. We know from Ecclesiastes that when a man dies, his spirit returns to the father. This verse comments on that saying that He will bring those with Him at His returning."
----------------------
But if you go to the next verses in 1 Thess 4 we see;
"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The plain reading of these verses is that As Jesus descends the dead will be resurrected first and caught up in the air and THEN return with Him to meet the rest of the saints in the air. There is no requirement in this passage that Jesus is bringing disembodied souls with Him.


_________________
Todd

 2016/6/23 20:55Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Rev wrote:

"Matthew 17:1–8
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, aI will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

So here we have Moses waking up from his soul sleep in order to converse with Jesus. And Elijah did not wake up because he never died, and yet they appeared
to be of the same substance to the disciple.

Did Moses go back to soul sleep afterwords and become a soul sleeping man again?"
________________________

But read a tad further down in v. 9: "Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the **vision** to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

Jesus himself called what they saw a "vision." That is not to say they did not literally see something. I believe Peter literally saw a sheet coming down from heaven with unclean animals on it. Whether the sheet and unclean animals were literally real is another issue. That is not to say that visions cannot be real. Of course they can be. But they are spiritually seen.


_________________
Todd

 2016/6/23 21:15Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: Maybe...but verse 14 seems to say it pretty plainly that them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If it is the souls of the dead that return with God, then their reuniting with their bodies is the resurrection in my view. Then after that resurrection the rest of those alive are also caught up.

By the way, just so you know, I do not have a dog in the fight. I have not seen either side of this clearly enough from scripture to be able to be dogmatic about either perspective.


_________________
Travis

 2016/6/23 21:15Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I don't have a dog in the fight either. I just think the topic can be discussed intelligently and objectively without ripping throats out.


_________________
Todd

 2016/6/23 21:18Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body.
The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity.
For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)



Carmine: You might be right. If so, that brings up the second question. It is the spirit of man, united with the body, that we typically think of as a living soul, although some use soul and spirit interchangeable, and scripture sometimes as well. If the spirit leaves the body, and if the spirit remains conscious, then where does the spirit go? It seems inconsistent to me to for a person to go to heaven or hell, to be brought back out at a future date to face a judgement, simply to be told that you will return to the reward you are already experiencing. I know some have indicated that there is a "holding place" beyond the tomb where spirits wait for the judgment. It comes, I believe, from the reference to Jesus ministering to the spirits in prison. I see way less evidence scripturally for that then there is on either side of the soul sleep discussion.

What I do know is that we must be very careful about using Ecclesiastes as a doctrinal book, just as we would have to be careful about using the chapter of Daniel that was written by Nebuchadnesser as a doctrinal chapter. When I was young, soul sleep was verified, in fact "proven" by the verse in Ecclesiastes that says that the dead know nothing. Taken out of context probably, but used as a proof text all the same.

But there remain too many unanswered questions for me to dismiss the idea altogether. And for every verse on one side, there seems to be one on the other with each side claiming that the other has slightly misrepresented scripture.

This is why I think the discussion is fruitful. I want to see what scriptures are brought to the table and study them more carefully.


_________________
Travis

 2016/6/23 21:24Profile





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