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 Re:

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and MARK them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Jeff, what kind of MARK do you think Paul had in mind for these two types of people?

Obviously, no physical mark. Do I know for sure if there is going to be a physical mark? No! I am just providing food for thought.

If you read Richard Wurmbrand's books you will see where he refers to the Christians as being metaphorically "marked", by the communists and he testifies that they were unable to get jobs to buy food, because they were regarded (marked) as people who should not receive any help. In fact, if you were caught helping those who were marked (ostracized), then you would also be treated the same way.

Society "marks" people all the time to ostracize them. In WW II, they actually did put a yellow star of David on the clothing of those who were Jewish and beyond that, they tattooed numbers on their forearms.

So, I understand the societal mark which ostracized many through the centuries as well as the physical mark that not only made it impossible to buy and sell in WW II, but marked millions for death.

Again, what will happen in the future, no one knows but the important thing is to have the mark of Christ on you, now.



 2016/6/21 19:38
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Jesus was referring to and quoting from Daniel

21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occured since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. (Matt 24:15)

1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued.

2 "And many who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

Jesus - for then there will be a great tribulation, "such as has not occured" since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. (Matt 24:15)

Daniel - And there will be a time of distress "such as never occurred" since there was a nation until that time;

Jesus is quoting almost word for word from Daniel.

Jesus' "great tribulation" is the same as Daniel's "time of distress" such as has never occurred.

The question asked of Jesus had been what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Daniel, right after describing the time of distress such as never occurred, goes on to speak of the resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The resurrection occurs at the end of this present age so Daniel's statement of the resurrection can be seen as occurring at the end of the age which is what Jesus was asked about - what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Conclusion - just before the resurrection at the end of the age there will be a great tribulation such as never hass occurred since the world began.

- Tribulation such as never occurred
- A time of distess such as never occurred
THEN the second advent of Christ when many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake -"for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first (many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake).

If Daniel is to be believed, the time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation (a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world - Jesus) will occur in close proximity and just preceding the resurrection of the dead which can only occur when Christ returns when the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout. A very clear, simple, and basic order of events - a time of unparalleled tribulation at the end of the age followed in very close time proximity by the resurrection when Christ descends with a shout and the dead in Christ rise first.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/6/22 1:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by docs on 2016/6/22 1:49:26

21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. (Matt 24:15)



Sounds pretty definitive to me. I wonder if "great" is qualitative or quantitative or both?

I tend to think it is quantitative because you can't get much worse than the torture that the Inquisition thought up. Plus, a beheading in the Dark Ages is the same as a beheading today.

Since there are more people on earth today, it follows that the tribulation that encompasses the whole earth will be quantitatively, greater.

GREAT
μέγας
megas
meg'-as
Including the prolonged forms, femine μεγάλη megalē, plural μέγάλοι megaloi, etc.; compare also G3176, G3187], big (literally or figuratively, IN A VERY WIDE APPLICATION): - (+ fear) EXCEEDINGLY, great (-est), high, LARGE, LOUD, MIGHTY, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.


 2016/6/22 9:59









 Re:

Of course, in order to reinterpret or allegorize that as the quantitative whole of all of the last days together which is all of church history (2,000+ years) as "the great tribulation" or "time of Jacob's trouble", there are many problems. The time denoted use of "a time, times, & half a time", "for 42 months", 3 & 1/2 years, Daniel's 70th week (of years), etc. There are other problems with this (I believe convincingly) over-allegorization to explain it away also. It's in the context of "The Day of the Lord" (just prior to it) & saying the last 2,000 years is "the great tribulation" or "the time of Jacob's trouble" of unequaled & unparalleled tribulation doesn't make sense & you can't really reconcile all of scripture with that interpretation, I am quite convinced.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/6/22 10:10









 Re:

EDIT:

I don't have a difficult time reconciling the last 2,000 years being the Great Tribulation. No allegory needed.

You can start with Rome's persecution of the Early Church and Rome's Inquisition spanning 7 centuries, slaughtering 50 million+.

Quite easy, in fact.

It spans a GREAT amount of time, affects a GREAT number of people (millions and millions) and has been GREATLY horrendous. It is not over with, yet.

The Great Tribulation of the last 2,000 years fits the qualitatively horrible aspect as well as the quantitatively incredible aspect of countless numbers persecuted for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Remember, Paul and Peter realized they were in the "Last Days" and wrote about it extensively. The "Last Days" have also covered the last 2,000 years.

 2016/6/22 11:31
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Too many omissions

/Sounds pretty definitive to me./

Why would God want to remain unclear and not definitive on the issue?

Your answer passes over too many of the key factors in the passages to be considered a serious answer. The context of the reply Jesus is given is key and you have omitted any reference to Michael standing (Dan 12:1) up as part of key chronological events very close to the time of the resurrection when many asleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. The resurrection (Dan 12:2) happens at the very last of the last days. If you would rather consider only the parts that make it easy for you then that choice is yours.

/Since there are more people on earth today, it follows that the tribulation that encompasses the whole earth will be quantitatively, greater./

So you acknowledge a tribulation that will cover the whole earth instead of just parts of it at certain times? If so, that would in and of itself make this specific tribulation greater than any that has occurred since the world began. Meanwhile, you have omitted Michael being active at a specific time close to the resurrection and its association with this tribulation. The resurrection comes at the very last of the last days of this age and coincides with the second advent of Christ. So your answer is incomplete at best.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/6/22 13:39Profile









 Re:

We will just have to agree to disagree, docs. I don't want to debate your view. I just wanted to tell you what I believe. It is a non-essential in my book and should not break our unity in Christ.

 2016/6/22 13:47
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/We will just have to agree to disagree, docs. I don't want to debate your view. I just wanted to tell you what I believe. It is a non-essential in my book and should not break our unity in Christ./

Got ya. Sounds good.

It might be non-essential as you say but can still be essential in a large way for the church to seek to try and determine from the prophetic word what to expect during the last days of its eschatological role.

I took note of the recent false accusations against you but there's no need to mention them in a reply. Whew!


_________________
David Winter

 2016/6/22 13:56Profile









 Re:

Yes, I agree it is essential in some respect, but not for unity and love. Many in my house church believe as you, yet we are very close to one another, in Jesus. We never argue about it and trust the Lord to give us one mind on it. He will do that, as the days go by.

 2016/6/22 14:17









 Re:

The phrase "Last Days" is defined in scripture by the apostles as the time between Christ's 2 advents. This is a different term in the original than when the angel told Daniel that the meaning of the vision was sealed "until the time of the End". So the last 2,000 years is called "the Last days", sure, but it's a sweeping semantics ignoring of ALL the relevant texts to not acknowledge there's an "end times" or "last of the last days" or whatever you're comfortable calling it. A child's senior year is his "last days" of school, but the last week before graduation is "the end" or the last of his last days, etc. Daniel, Jesus & the apostles gave us signs to watch for to know the season in which we live (something Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being ignorant of in their day).and there are specific times given. Not only that, but some are referred to in various ways (3.5 years described in several different ways like I said) showing its not some Hebraic idiom wordplay only, but an actual time period ("a time, times & 1/2 a time", "42 months", "3.5 years"). Anyways, God Bless!
Jeff

 2016/6/22 17:59





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