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Discussion Forum : General Topics : persecution: good or bad?

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 Re:

Todd, the the verses following your quotes ones can make it clearer for you.
Ephesians 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Paul's tribulations are his weakness, but without those the message of God would not spread.

 2016/6/18 16:30
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: You didn't go near any of the questions

For some reason you did not even touch the aspect of suffering and persecution in the last days and how this suffering may be allowed and used by God to refine and form the church so as to fit it for His last days purpose and role for the church. You can even disagree with those comments if you want but you didn't go near them which is the subject of the OP to a large degree. Your focus for some reason was way somewhere else.

Neither is the word "new Israel" used in the Bible but prechers and teachers still use it abundantly without explaining to their hearers it is not a Biblical term.

/Mystery of Iniquity
Mystery of Godliness
Mystery of Faith
Mystery of the Kingdom of God
Mystery of His will
Mystery of Christ
Mystery among the Gentiles
Mystery of God
Mystery of Godliness
Mystery of the seven stars
Mystery of the Woman/

Those issues and mysteries (once hidden but now revealed) are all tied and linked to Israel and the church.

/Now, I will continue to read the article, even though Reggie is a well-known Hebrew Roots teacher, I will keep an open mind./

That is a shallow and false representation of the author. If you disagree with people they should still be given the courtesy of being truly represented as to what their views are.

Do you have any thoughts about a suffering and persecuted church being molded by that very suffering? I may be the very first one to try and dodge it but many feel it is ahead and not that far in the future for the church in America and elsewhere. That doesn't discount in any way the part of the church already dramatically suffering throughout the world.

Good day also to you.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/6/19 9:28Profile









 Re:

Brothers and sisters, as I was thinking about persecution and what we need to do I came to the following thoughts:
1. God allows us to be persecuted and uses it for good.
2. God gives us grace to endure persecution, or takes us out of it.
3. Through our persecution many will be saved
4. Jesus wants us to love our persecutors and pray for them.
5. Our real enemy is Satan.
6. God wants us to obey our govenrment, but do justly even if we are punished for it.
7. Persecution doesn't destroy the church, it strengthens it.
8. Persecution does not cause second death, deception does.
9. It is pleasing to God when we stand faithfully in persecution.

 2016/6/20 0:07









 Re: Docs Comments..

Funny,
I was actually thinking all of the almost exact things you wrote Doc. Equating Reggie Kelley with the "Hewbrew Roots movement" reminded me
Of like those who equate David Wilkerson, Art Katz, Henry Gruver, Dimitri Dudaman, john Paul Jackson & other truly prophetic warning watchmen on the wall & their prophetic words with the likes Of Harold Camping, David Koresh, the Millerites, etc. Like comparing apples & rotten bananas IMHO.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/6/20 0:30
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: I agree Tozsu

Those are pretty good points you shared. Point #4, loving and praying for our persecutors, may be a true siogn that Christ has been formed in the hearts of the church. When the church can endure provocation and respond in love then iot may be the truly God formed and mature church the scriptures hold before us. If truly done in the Spirit, it is a divine miracle sign as powerful as any. It's my opinion that the tribulations spoken of at the end of the age will be a time of suffering and persecution unparalleled in scope and intensity to all that have come before it yet it will help produce in the church those who truly know Christ's love as they will have learned to endure with love the onslaught of its enemies. I'm not there yet to be sure. It mitigates and cuts across the grain of the early exit for the church view.

Thank you for your thoughts.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/6/20 3:04Profile









 Re:

two thirds of the world has been going through tribulation for a long time and it has been great tribulation for them.

So, how will persecution and tribulation mold the last day's church in the West?

Good question. The word says many will be offended because of Jesus and not endure to the end. This is the falling away. But, many also will endure persecution and tribulation and maintain the testimony of Jesus.

Our greatest enemy is unbelief.

 2016/6/20 9:39









 Re:

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus in Matthew 24:21 predicted a great tribulation that would come upon the people in Judea in the 70th week of Daniel which happened in the 1st century.

This is my understanding of the scriptures.
This was not intended to be an end time thread, and it is OK to disagree in non essentials such as the predictions about the future.


 2016/6/20 9:50









 Re:

It is true, as Jesus said, "in this world you will have tribulation..." The church always has & always will. This constant ever increasing "tribulation" though is different than "the great tribulation" ("for then there will be tribulation such as has never been before nor ever again shall be" in one place & "the time of Jacob's trouble" in another, etc.). Among other reasons, I believe We know this was not completely fulfilled in 70 AD (although 70 AD was a foretaste picture of what would come later) as the Preterists claim because (among many other scriptural reasons) it has been worse since then at times in number, magnitude, etc. Especially in the Islamic controlled 10/40 window of the Middle East. Worse for Christians at the hands of Islam (last couple decades have seen more martyrs than any past ones & last century more than the other 19 centuries previous to it COMBINED). And, in addition to that, if you take these passages for the Jews, then the WW2 era (Stalin & Hitler combined in addition to the Pogroms, etc.) surpassed all other Jewish deaths historically combined. So either way you read that passage of "ever was or ever shall be" be it Jews, Christians or both combined, 70 AD doesn't fit the bill. But something much greater is coming in the prophetic days ahead. I think the full counsel of scripture & all the prophetic texts concerning the Day of the Lord reconciled together make this pretty clear IMHO. Also never seen the day where no one on all the earth can could buy, sell, or eat save the mark of the beast (whatever you think that is be it spiritual, actual/physical, etc., it still means "something" & it's not yet happened).

 2016/6/20 21:14
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: ""for then there will be tribulation such as has never been before nor ever again shall be"

But consider:

Exodus 11:6: "Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again."

Ezek. 5:9: "And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations."

2 Kings 18:5: "He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him."

Joel 2:2: "A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.'

2 Kings 23:25: "Now before him there was no king like him, who turned to the Lord with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; nor after him did any arise like him."

Daniel 9:12: "And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem."


_________________
Todd

 2016/6/21 8:16Profile









 Re:

First off, you didn't tell me when the "mark of the beast" was enacted upon the earth so that no one was able to eat, buy or sell without the mark? When did that happen? And second, as far as the verses you cited, Well let's answer them one by one (taking into consideration their full context):

1.) exodus 11 - there never has again been such a great cry IN EGYPT, since all of Egypt's firstborn were killed. Do you know of a time when there was?

2.) Ezekiel 5 - if you look at the context (not just verse 9 plucked out in isolation) it is IMMEDIATELY followed by "THEREFORE father's shall eat their sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers." I am not sure any other time when this cannibalism was true in Jerusalem, so it seems this is specifically what manner of judgement verse 9 is referring to.

3.) 2 Kings 18 - I think it means exactly what it says (seems people try to say often the Bible doesn't mean anything or doesn't mean what it says, Hebraic word phrases aside, sometimes to me to support their ism). ESV Study Bible commentary on that verse = " hezekiah's trust was unparalleled in Judean history, & was evidenced in the way he HELD FAST to God throughout his life, in contrast to Solomon, who in his old age "HELD FAST" to foreign wives and broke the Law of Moses."

4.) Joel 2:2 - I believe Joel 1 speaks of the current situation they were in at the time in Judah, but I, & many commentators & scholars alike, believe in chapter 2 Joel is speaking of a future judgement that will come - a mighty army set against Judah. This is made clearer in its full prophetic context by looking at the fact that in 2:1 just before that Joel says "for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near..." The Day of the Lord should be clear to us as to when it is referring, when Christ returns to judge the quick and the dead. So this judgement of this people the world never has or ever will see again, is in the context of (just prior to) the "Day of the Lord". 70 AD was a little "type" of this, but the actual & full/final fulfillment is still yet to come. And in classic prophetic, God-Style, the Assyrians are the ancient ancestors of the radical Islamicists of the 10/40 window. Those countries which now surround Israel & hate her (& the Christians) with an unnatural, satanicly inspired rage. The language the Assyrians spoke disappeared, but it's closest remaining language from its roots is Arabic. And who is more feared than the likes of ISIS & these types? None since the Asdyrians in all the earth. "TERRORism". There are a hundred other clear connections, including the Antichrist clear parallel fulfillment a of all the NT passages, etc.

5.) 2 Kings 23 - I think it means just what it says (why my 5th child's middle name is Josiah, which means "The Lord burns" or "Our God is an everlasting Fire"). ESV Commentary on verse 25 says, "In spite of several generations of idolatry and rebellion against the Lord, somehow Josiah arose as a righteous king who not only appeared outwardly to be righteous but turned to the Lord with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses. Me = Pretty self explanatory. I think God meant what is written there. Don't "absolutize" the phrase "never was not ever will be again" to equate exactly what qualities in Josiah the Lord was speaking to as EXACTLY the same as what the Lord spoke of Hezekiah's on in the other passage (though related, not exactly identical). Hezekiah's TRUST in God shines through & Josiah's ZEAL & OBEDENCE shine through (though both shared in all these traits for sure for the Lord to single them out & speak in such ways in holy writ).

6.) Daniel 9:12 - that's pretty simple. This is Daniel speaking and what was done at that time never had been done before in Israel? Not sure what is so mysterious to you at all on that one?

Again, although some of these texts require a closer look and study, some want to just pluck texts out of their context (which creates a "pretext" & eisegesis rather than exegesis) to support their own thinking/isms. Not saying at all you're doing this Todd, but I see it ALL the time. Especially since the Bible originally had not only no chapter numbers but no verse numbers. The addition of chapters, & verses, & the quick Google search has all in my opinion caused us to evaluate & compare scripture with scripture in an often isolated, eisegesis, incomprehensive, and wrong way.

FYI - ALL CAPS are not yelling but are for emphasis since Bold & italics are not possible in this format.

Anyways, good questions TMK.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/6/21 9:19





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