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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : (Becoming a Prophetic Church) 1. The Nescessity of the Cross by Art Katz

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Yehuda
Member



Joined: 2005/3/28
Posts: 32
Dallas, Texas

 (Becoming a Prophetic Church) 1. The Nescessity of the Cross by Art Katz

Greetings in Jesus from Dallas!

After having listened to this first of which appears to be apparently but one of a series of messages by our most excellent brother Art Katz, which I enjoyed very much hearing.

After having listened to this first message, and later as I came to give more prayerful thought to this message given by Art Katz.

I believe the Lord impressed this upon my heart, that I am now about to share with you ---------

God's purpose for returning the Jews to Israel is not, and never has been an end in itself, but rather for their final salvation.

The Jews are not being re-gathered to their ancient land to be blessed, but to face a terrible judgement --- known in Jeremiah 30 as the time of Jacob's trouble (the Great Tribulation) in which they will be deceived into thinking the Antichrist is their Messiah (John chapter 5:43).

There is no blessing for the Jews apart from Jesus.

The Jews are under the curse of the law, as Paul plainly states in Romans and Galatians (see Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10-11; Romans 2:12; 3:19-20; 4:13-15).

As the Bible teaches, the law of God is indeed perfect (see Psalm 19:8; 119; Romans 4:13-15), but it brings an indictment against all mankind for their sins.

Yet because the Jews were specifically chosen to bring the world the revelation of God, the indictment falls upon them first (see Genesis 12:2-3; Romans 2:9; 3:2,19; Acts 7:38-42;51:1-3).

What is God's purpose for Israel?

God's true purpose for Israel is salvation!


In Christ,

Jake


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Jacob (Jake)

 2005/5/27 7:42Profile
couch
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Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re: Becoming a Prophetic Church 1.The Nescessity of the Cross by Art Katz

Yehuda,

I completely agree with you, that the Jews will come to ultimate salvation, but it is going to be "everything that can be shaken will be shaken" to get there.

Ultimately, however, as you mentioned, the Jews are not an end to themselves, but so that they might fulfill their destiny in God. When they do that, the nations of the earth will come into theirs as well. First the Jew, then the Greek...

Even this isn't the end however, the end is the glory of God, given to Him rightly and authentically by a representative from every tribe, tongue, and nation on the earth!

Even so, come Lord Jesus...


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Ryan Couch

 2005/5/27 11:01Profile
Yehuda
Member



Joined: 2005/3/28
Posts: 32
Dallas, Texas

 Re: For the glory of God

Hi, Couch.

Thank you for your post!

I believe you may be ahead of many Christians in your learning, concerning the purposes of God for Israel.

In saying that I mean in general in Christiandom. I am not referring to posters here in the forum, but just Christians today, in general.

I hope to talk a lot about the purposes of God concerning Israel during my sojourn here. But really, I had not planned to do so.

It's only that upon coming to this forum, and to be suddenly drawn to Art Katz's Sermons, and to now to have begun to listen to them, I have come now to feel constrained to do so.

Perhaps this may be at least in part, why I feel constrained to do so ..........

Psalm 102:13 (NJK) says,

You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.

As for the restoration of Israel, much of the restoration of Israel is of political and geographical nature. However, not exclusively so. For it is a spiritual restoration too.

The current restoration of the Jewish people that can now be seen happening: in which God is has been and is restoring the Jewish people to the land that He has given them, known today as being the land of Israel.

This is actually a sign of God's favor.

In God's calendar, there is a set time to favor Zion. And I believe we are either living in it that time now or we are approaching it.


Be blessed, brother.

Jake


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Jacob (Jake)

 2005/5/27 15:53Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Becoming a Prophetic Church 1.The Nescessity of the Cross by Art Katz

Quote:
God's purpose for returning the Jews to Israel is not, and never has been an end in itself, but rather for their final salvation.



I believe along simaler lines, I do believe that they will build the third temple and they will be returned to the land of Israel, but not so much out of God fullfilling his promises, but because of their stuborn refusal to believe on the one they have pierced. Its almost like Joels prophecy of multititudes coming to valley of Jehosophat is based not so much on anything other than the fact that Jews hold to the notion that are what God originally intended as being his special people. The nations of the world, the surrounding nations of the land of Israel will be gathered together to witness what Gods true intent was with them as a people, gathered together not because his heart has turned, but as a declaration of his ultimate purpose for man and for them as a people.

The lessons of the prodigal son and the eleventh hour workers highlight certainly the response of a person and a people who have worked and laboured all these years and in the heat of the day. Looking at there history bears testimony to their refusal to loose there identity and have laboured deligently to maintain there form of devotion to God in spite of huge persecution. The response of the Father to the elder son is fitting I think at this time.'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.Luke 15:31 . It seems that, there has been a labouring in the things of God, but never a understanding of the true nature of God. Thus lies the difference of the relationship of Israel to God and the Church to God, the one receiving blessing based soley upon his grace and the other a belief that...All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders.Luke 15:29

Is it conceivable that their return would not be seen as an act, not of Gods blessing upon them but in their refusal of the Messiah? In spite of the desert blooming and all the blessings that have come upon them, the miracle of their survival in a hostile environment, could it be that it is blessings based upon disobedience and rebellion and not that they are receiving the blessing of God himself? Could it be that in the following of Gods orders they have been able to accomplish much in the name of God and have received the blessings that come with belonging to the household of God, but have never known the God of the house?

The discussions that we have had about this on this forum have certainly shaped my thinking in regards to what is the real purpose for all this? And we certainly have kicked this ball backwards and forwards with great gusto.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/5/27 16:44Profile
Yehuda
Member



Joined: 2005/3/28
Posts: 32
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Jeremiah 31:10

Hi, Zeke.

Thank you for your post!

Today, many people I know, by the way, I do have some relatives that are Orthodox Jews that now live in Israel. Any way, what I was about to say was --- that I know many people today who have been and are unsettled by the crisis in Israel with all has and is going on there.

However, I have not ever known Israel really to not be in a time of crisis.

There are certian Bible verses that in such times, that I do I find comforting in such times: Jeremiah 31:10 (NKJ) says ....

Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say ...
"He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock."

In that passage just quoted above, God is speaking here to the nations other than Israel. He is saying, in effect: "I am planning to restore My Jewish people to the land that I gave them. If you seek to hinder or oppose what I am doing, I will have to treat you as My enemies."

This is now a fact of history. He who scattered Israel, not merely will gather him, but is gathering him. Remember those words were spoken well over two thousand years ago. But they exactly describe the contemporary situation in Israel.

And the language used is appropriate.

Hebrew uses just one word to say "will gather him", and that word is from the same root as "Kibbutz."

A Kibbutz is a special community that came into being when the Jews began to return to this land God had given them, that today, is called the land of Israel.

So we could amplify that statement, "He who scattered Israel will gather him in kibbutim."

This is a remarkable example of God's prophetic insight revealed in Scripture,

I, personally, do not believe that Israel would have survived the last 57 years without kibbutzim.

In times of crisis in Israel I find that verse above quoted comforting: "He who scattered Israel not merely will gather him, but is gathering him and will keep [or protect] him" is indicative that there is going to be a time crisis, not a normal, peaceful situation.

So whenever I hear about another crisis in Israel, I think about that verse: "He who scattered Israel is gathering him and will keep him."


In Christ,

Jake


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Jacob (Jake)

 2005/5/27 17:58Profile





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