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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Art Katz

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spules
Member



Joined: 2005/3/9
Posts: 15


 Art Katz

I'm new to this wonderful site, and have been so blessed by having this opportunity to hear to such great voices for God. Some are new to me like Art Katz. I have been mesmerized by his ministry, and have asked a friend who shares a like passion for Israel, and he told me that "Art is controversial and his theology is off base". If that were true, I don't think he would be on this site. There are so many views on Israel, so why shouldn't Art be entitled to his? In my opinion his message is centered in Christ and on the Cross. I would welcome a better understanding if I'm missing something here.

 2005/5/26 9:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Art Katz

Hi spules,

Welcome to sermonindex! As with any writer or speaker- you should always search the scriptures to see if those things which they say are so. I have listened to Art many times and have heard him speak in person. His views on Israel are a bit controversial, but that would not cause me to not listen to him. It is the same no matter who you are listening to. Measure all things by the word of God. Prove all things and hold gast to that which is good.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/26 9:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
His views on Israel are a bit controversial...


Shall I, sharn't I, shall I... In that this is a public forum I think I have to say that personally I find Art's views on Israel to be very 'off base'. He is a man of great passion and integrity but his views on Israel are not biblical and his predictive aspects very disturbing... in my opinion.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/26 10:57Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

I'll be the one to venture out there...

Is there something you could cite specifically that goes against the tenor of scripture? I've yet to uncover anything amiss in his teaching, although I would agree that his views on Israel are controversial, and definitely difficult to take.

However, many a prophet has been rejected because of the radical nature of the call that came from his life and lips. God's destiny for Israel to be a "nation of priests" must come to pass, and looking at their situation currently, something of a great purifying nature must come to pass.

This seems to be Art's main emphasis on Israel, that they must come unto "death" so that they may come to "new life" by the acceptance of Messiah. This death isn't going to come to pass in a whim, but by a great tribulation period of sifting, as referenced in Amos chapter 9. Then and only then can the valley of dry bones come to life. (Ezekiel 37)

In light of how God has proven himself to be the God of resurrection in so many biblical accounts (Abraham and Isaac, Joshua, Lazarus, even Jesus Himself), I find it completely in line with biblical teaching that one must "lose his life in order to find it".

What is it going to take for modern day Israel in all of its pride, weaponry, and legalistic zeal to come to a deep repentance, not one that merely comes back to God for a brief apology, but one that dies to themselves and accepts their passover lamb and messiah, Yeshua? (Matt. 23:39)Something of great "trouble" must surely come to pass for Jacob...

I find Art's teaching to be in line with this, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts my learned brother.


_________________
Ryan Couch

 2005/5/26 12:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi couch
I think this thread will give you the flavour of my discomfort. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3095&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz critique.[/url] I began it in response to a brother who was serialising Art's works on SI. I did not want to interrupt the flow of what was being posted but felt that things were being expressed that needed to be challenged.

The original thread was called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3084&forum=34]Israel and the Church.[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/26 13:59Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

Ron,

Thank you for this, I have spent the last while reading over these posts that you and Mr. Wurtz have contributed about the subject.

First of all, I wish that I was aware of Mr. Wurtz' presence at the IHOP events where Art spoke, I would have enjoyed meeting him very, very much.

As a student of the Word, we definitely must consider any teacher's claims against the backdrop of the scriptures, but something I've noticed about myself is being careful not to make the backdrop static so as not to see the scriptures only the way I want to see them.

I believe we all agree on that, we want to see the scriptures for what they truly say, not for what we want them to say.

The thing I am most thankful for in Art is the fact that he is a man that so HUNGERS after the Spirit of Truth, that he thinks it necessary to beg God at the beginning of his messages, sometimes not continuing if the Lord desires otherwise. He is DESPERATE for God's truth to be made known.

Additionally, he has such a JEALOUSY for the Lord to receive the glory that He is due in every life, every service, every message, every worship time, and every nation.

This is evidenced not only by the many times that he has thought it necessary to bring difficult words of rebuke to carnal congregations by the Spirit, but also by the fact that he continues to travel all over the world at his age (75) because he so desperately longs to see the true Church pure and spotless for the Lord Jesus Christ.

On top of all of this, I know that Art so very much longs for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and knows what the Bible speaks must come to pass. He knows that this is not to occur until Israel says "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". (Matt. 23:39), and therefore sees that as a central, and not marginal issue.

I, for one am convinced that although Art seems to have "a preoccupation and fascination with Israel", he does so not out of some bizarre desire to be different or noticeable as a Jewish man himself, but because he REALIZES the sheer necessity of Israel's repentance to bring about the ultimate goal, the Lord Jesus glorious return.

As Art would say "The issue is not one of Israel itself, or of the Church itself, but the issue is the Glory of God forever."

To that, I join him in saying Amen.


_________________
Ryan Couch

 2005/5/26 15:07Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I began it in response to a brother who was serialising Art's works on SI.



On a lighter note I once heard Van Impe say that he was so "pretrib" that he would not eat [i]Post Toasties[/i]. I had to laugh that one off. :-P

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/26 15:13Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

Ron,

That is hilarious, I was laughing at my desk. Another witty joke that I heard recently was from David Pawson, another excellent student of the Word that I highly recommend. He said:

"I hear all of this talk about Amillenialism, Premillenialism, Postmillenialism, and I think to myself - What A-pre-post-erous discussion!"

Mr. Wurtz, I appreciate your summaries from the other post on Art - I believe they are articulately accurate on Art's eschatological framework and of great value.


_________________
Ryan Couch

 2005/5/26 15:21Profile
masbi
Member



Joined: 2005/5/26
Posts: 3


 Re:

I advise you to check out this site: www.benisrael.org
It hosts all of Art Katz's writings. You can order books by him as well as other authors online from this site.

There you'll find lots of supporting materials including books by various authors (which you can order online from the site). Art Katz's view on Israel is not a new phenomena. His views are clearly supported by Scripture.

 2005/5/26 15:55Profile
Yehuda
Member



Joined: 2005/3/28
Posts: 32
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Philogos discomfort

Hi, Philogos!

I have not as yet, heard Art Katz's veiws concerning Israel and the Church.

However, I will get around to learning of his veiws about it, and after I have, I will make it known as to whether I agree or not.(smiling)

Thus far, based on all I learned about Art Katz's veiws I agree with. However, I know not of even one minister that I believe to be a true servant of God, that I could say I would agree with all their veiws totally.

That's not to say they are wrong and I am always right. It's just that we are all still learning or at least we should be, and we do not all walk in the same measure of revelation of the truth of God's Word.

So what do we do if we hear something said by someone who we believe and know to be a true servant of God, that we may not totally agree with?

Do we throw the baby out with the bath water?

I hope you are understanding what I am trying to say.

In fact, if any one were to hear me talk long enough I have no doubt that eventally they are going to hear something I will say they don't like or don't agree with.

We all are like that!

My early teacher, professor and spiritual father had taught me something once that I had never forgotten. He said: "Whenever you hear someone speak or preach or teach, always do as you do when you eat fish! Shallow the meat, and spit out the bones!"

In just passing only in being for some reason it now comes to mind, I want to say this ....

Today, our most excellent brother Paul a "Hebrew of Hebrews" is popular in churches. But he wasn't in his day, I can sure tell you that.

I say, that because in Scripture it can be seen that his preaching caused riots in most of the places he preached.

But why? It was because he told the truth, he told it just like it was, no matter who did or didn't like it.

He was a man's man, and he was God's man.

I am convinced that if we proclaim the WHOLE TRUTH of God's Word, that is, if we know the whole truth (most preachers today, I am convinced do not) and to not compromise it. We will be hated too.

People will either go far one way or far the other when we speak. They will either love us or hate us.

Finally, I want to say that I have discovered this about truth, it's liable to be controverial.


In Christ,

Jake




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Jacob (Jake)

 2005/5/26 17:58Profile





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