| Re: Question for brother Greg|
"I read this passage this morning, it is so clear there is zero explanation that really is needed."
Brother Greg...well maybe some explanation is needed for dummies like me:-) So what does that mean...that every single Jew who is not currently saved, will eventually be saved? Is that the view that Michael Brown is stating? Does ALL mean ALL?
I have no previous view on this except what I see in a plain reading of the Word. I have never looked into this topic before because it has no bearing on my own salvation, but now that this topic is raised I am curious. Does this mean what I think everyone here think it means, that ALL Jews will be saved? Is it sort of like the Calvinist view that some people have no say in the matter...they are elected and predestined to be saved even if they don't want to? So is every single Jew part of that predestined, elect group that Calvinists talk about? They will be saved even if they don't want to be saved but they have no choice in the matter because they are Jews? I am sincerely trying to understand this.
Please, please, please, please a million times please do not take my comments as combative...I am almost afraid to ask this question from fear of having my head removed (by others here) and handed back to me lol. But my questions are a genuine request for enlightenment.
| 2016/5/11 10:53|
| Re: |
Edited to add comment at the end
And yes, those who tend to whip out a sword on this issue: please put the sword away so you don't actually do damage to the whole conversation (& to brethren, for which you will answer at the Judgement Seat). I am inclined to think that "All" either means "All" as in every single remaining (cause many will be wiped out just prior by their enemies), but leave room for the possibility that it may also mean "the great sweeping majority of". And the fact is, it is a sovereign action of God just like the tremendous move & revival of Muslims coming to Christ in the Middle East right now as He reveals Himself personally to them in dreams & visions (just like he did Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus). You are asking an excellent question. The fact is that if God says something will be, how EXACTLY all of that looks & plays out along the way can be difficult & murky (if not impossible to be 100% perfectly accurate looking into the future still by prophecy, but easier to identify & explain accurately as it happens or just after in the rear view mirror). I'll bet brothers like Doc, Art Katz, Michael Brown, Reggie Kelley, Joel Richardson, JC Ryle, Spurgeon, Horatiuos Bonar & others have more thorough insight/thoughts, but this is the simple $.10 laymen understanding & explanation as I can see it. 😊
And was it "fair" that Jesus actually showed himself to the Apostle Paul, knocked him down, blinded him, spoke audibly in the clouds, etc.? A good rhetorical question for those with the "but it's not fair...it MUST be by faith without seeing..." Position/argument.
| 2016/5/11 11:31|
| Re: |
God is an equal opportunity saviour. He is simply going to reveal himself fully to the descendants of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac without hindrance through Jesus Christ in the near future. The people and nation of Israel will see and understand who he is, unencumbered. by unbelieving religion and tradition. The veil will be fully removed by the Holy Spirit and many, many of them will respond to the invitation and salvation of the Lord.
Even in these days an ever increasing number, disproportionate to historical numbers are coming to saving faith in their Messiah. (Except for the first century church)
Zech 12 10: 14
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;
14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves\
Romans 11 25-27
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
| 2016/5/11 11:44|
| Re: |
I know there are several folks reading this who are biting their tongues to the point of amputation.
I would encourage you to continue to do so.
| 2016/5/11 12:02||Profile|
| Re: Israel Is Not Cast Away|
Israel Is Not Cast Away
Romans 11 1-5
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
Notice that scripture says in verse 5 "at the present time a remnant" (of the Jews are saved)
That time is now over being almost 2000 years ago. Today the fulfillment is already starting to occur and and no demon in hell or armchair religionist can stop the plan of Israel's God regarding the salvation of the Jew. The in-grafting of them has begun in earnest. The vine of the Lord will be completed and all Israel will be saved.
| 2016/5/11 12:21|
| Re: |
Thank you all for your replies, it is helpful to know what others believe. I personally put this in the same basket as all the other things I do not fully understand. Meaning that I simply cannot conclude that EVERY last Jew who is remaining at the end will be saved. Not saying they ALL won't and I am not saying they ALL will. Just saying I do not know.
Todd, I appreciate your comment and that so many are exercising such commendable self-control...it is a fruit of the Spirit you know:-) But I don't need to bite my tongue because I don't have a position, I am just intrigued as to what others believe and my question actually was for brother Greg, so I am hoping he will respond.
My position on other things is clear, as in that I do not believe the same as Calvinists - that a persons salvation is predetermined and cannot be changed. I do believe in free will so I am trying to get my head around how someone like me who believes in free will might also believe that every surviving Jew does not have a choice in the matter but will be saved because they are a Jew?
So anyway, I am glad that you are all being civil, and to be clear I love you all and do not mind if you disagree with me on any of these issues that are not essential to salvation. May we continue to walk in love and respect for one another.
| 2016/5/11 12:49|
| Re: |
Well, God's sovereign election doesn't have to be reduced to "had no choice against their will in the matter" type defining. Did Saul of Tarsus "have no choice against his will" or did God in Christ just soveriegnly elect Him into Paul the apostle through miraculous (& preordained) events that caused Paul's "will" to change? 😊
| 2016/5/11 13:36|
| Re: |
And as someone said, I think the final eschatological "in gathering" of Jews to the Messiah is kinda already in the "initial" pre-stages. There are more Muslims coming to Christ NOW than ever in Islamic history. There are more Jews coming to Christ IN NUMBERS than ever before in history (& even percentages only comparable in the first century early church). I am SO EXCITED as I see these things beginning to be coming to pass as I know the "Last Things" are on the prophetic horizon which means the Return of our Lord is near!
For those unaware of the in gathering of Jews to Christ, the ministry of "One For Israel" is a dynamic ministry in Israel evangelizing Jews by Jews & also incorporating the ministry of Arabs & ex-Muslims. You can watch HUNDREDS of Jewish personal conversion testimonies to Christ on their YouTube channel under the "I met Messiah" & "I found Shalom" headings. There are as many diverse testimonies as any other people group would have, but I think it is good listening to them in their own words how they perceived & understood "Christianity" before Christ (from the historical experiences of their ancestry), & how they each came to the Lord. I am so encouraged by it!
Here is a link to the YouTube channel to watch & listen to as many as you like. I watched almost all of them with my family & was/am greatly encouraged by what the Lord is doing in the Middle East at this time among Jews & Muslim Arabs!
| 2016/5/11 13:45|
| Re: |
Very good ministry Jeff, The testimony by Mottel Baleston has been viewed about 10 million times apparently. A large percentage of them Jews.
| 2016/5/11 16:53|
| Re: An everlasting inheritance|
8 He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac.
10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statue. to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, "To you will I give the land of Canaan as the portion of your inheritance. (Psalm 105:8-11)
If all of saved Israel is to eventually inherit the land of Canaan (and live under their Redeeming Servant Savior) then a major question would logically seem to be did the Lord relent on this promise in 70 AD? Or did possessing the land of Canaan really mean that if you are in Christ then wherever you are, spiritually speaking, you are in the promised land of Canaan. Or is it hermeneutically out of bounds to just opt for the plain meaning of the text? I'm not thinking it is. I know God faithfully keeps covenant.
| 2016/5/12 7:19||Profile|