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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Has the American Church Met Its Burden?

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 Re:

There is a lot of mixture between the two kingdoms, right now.

The salt can lose it's savor and be good for nothing.

A light can be put under a bushel and not give off any light.

Jesus tells those who are His to come out of religious Babylon.

There should be no mixture in the Church, but there is. The wheat and the tares are difficult to distinguish. Man is unable to separate them. Only God has the wisdom to do that. In the meantime, He calls His own to come out of Babylon. Those who are His will answer the call. (The Lord knoweth them that are His).

Paul - speaking to the Church.
"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." (1 Cor 10:20)

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14)

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Eph 5:11)

The burden of the Church is the Lord's burden and His burden is for us to stay yoked up to Him, so He (and NO ONE ELSE) can lead us.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them THAT OBEY HIM;" (Heb 5:9)

 2016/5/9 15:43
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Julius-

In your view what would "coming out of Babylon" entail? What would it look like?


_________________
Todd

 2016/5/9 15:55Profile









 Re:

edit:

Come out of everything that is not of Christ. If you have allowed yourself to be led into something that is not of Christ, allow the Lord to lead you out. I can't give you a list of things as this is Spirit-led. Usually, ungodly, unChristlike things we have been led into are tied to relationships and so if we love the relationship more than we love the Lord we will justify and reason within ourselves that "this is of Christ". If you are not sure about something, fast and pray and seek the Lord for clarity and direction. If we ask Him, wanting the truth no matter how much it hurts, He is faithful to answer.

Only the Holy Spirit and the Word can lead each man out of darkness, out of "Babylon". It can be so many different, subtle things of the heart.

 2016/5/9 16:22
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I sort of meant from the more corporate standpoint. What would the corporate church in America look like if it came out of Babylon?


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Todd

 2016/5/9 19:26Profile









 Re:

When you prefix church with corporate, how does that modify the church? In other words how does "corporate church" and "church" differ? Is there a difference in your mind?

The Holy Spirit is faithful to lead us into all truth. Leading us into all truth will lead us out of religious Babylon. One cannot take the Bible and make a rule book out of it. "Coming out" of Babylon is a spiritual, heart centered coming out, not necessarily physical as in leaving a particular organization.

 2016/5/9 20:57
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

The OP question remains open.

Would things differ materially here if the church revived? We cannot say. I would say that a revival of such scale needed to bring about that change is unprecedented. Revivals have been widespread but not thoroughly leavening society. There have been deep abiding local or regional revivals from God but He has not put on a sweeping and sudden societal changing movement, not in the sense of awakening and revival as we read of from the past.

Not even the Great Awakening(s) did that. Widespread pockets? Yes. Moral influence beyond conversions? Sure. But, the latter does not count and has no eternal value. In fact, in a real sense "moral social order" disguises lostness; there is an argument to be made that the enemy sows tares of moralism where revival occurs. Nothing says "OK boys, work's done here" like the sprouting of fruit that pleases the eye. And when society appears moral, we bite that fruit and spiritual revival turns to self reliance. Utah social order is an example of this sort of artifice.

It seems to me the best measure of revival is the life of the church and not the moral rectitude of society. Revival causes trouble. Revival is a subterfuge and sabotage of the social order. China knows what real revival is. Iran knows. I have a sense that N. Korea may already know. Those places are not more moral, not less deserving of judgment.

And let's also check whether our measurements are true. We do not know justice by our own goodness. We cannot vouch for ourselves. We cannot say to God, "We have mitigated Your cause against us."


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Tim

 2016/5/10 6:45Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

J-

I agree that individuals need to be revived first. But I don't think a couple of revived individuals will do anything to change society or even the Church.

When I say corporate Church I mean the whole body of Christians. What would it look like if the Church came out of Babylon? If that is nothing but a pipe dream why do people keep talking about it and praying for it?


_________________
Todd

 2016/5/10 7:29Profile









 Re:

[by dolfan on 2016/5/10 6:45:08

It seems to me the best measure of revival is the life of the church and not the moral rectitude of society. Revival causes trouble. Revival is a subterfuge and sabotage of the social order. China knows what real revival is. Iran knows. I have a sense that N. Korea may already know. Those places are not more moral, not less deserving of judgment.

And let's also check whether our measurements are true. We do not know justice by our own goodness. We cannot vouch for ourselves. We cannot say to God, "We have mitigated Your cause against us."




Very, very good points. Compare the life of the Early Church with that of surrounding Romish life. The life of the Church in China, North Korea, today.

 2016/5/10 8:43









 Re:

Quote:
by TMK on 2016/5/10 7:29:34

J-

I agree that individuals need to be revived first. But I don't think a couple of revived individuals will do anything to change society or even the Church.



Nevertheless, a revived individual has great influence on those around him/her but we don't repent and revive for the sake of others, but for the sake of Christ.

Quote:
When I say corporate Church I mean the whole body of Christians. What would it look like if the Church came out of Babylon? If that is nothing but a pipe dream why do people keep talking about it and praying for it?



I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon.

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (Matt 13:30)

The question should be "am I partaking of anything that is not of Christ?"

2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Pet 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 2016/5/10 8:51
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

J wrote: "I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon."

Then why does this site exist; why all the calls for a new great awakening that will never happen?

[these questions aren't directed just to you, and may be rhetorical. I'm not sure].


_________________
Todd

 2016/5/10 9:14Profile





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