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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010

 Re: salvation

Since Zac has been brought up in this thread more than once, for the record I'd like to remind you all of what he'd have us all believe. And just what do I mean, you ask...I mean this; that he'd have us believe that both Solomon and Samson are in hell.

And BTW - the question I asked remains to be answered. tuc seemed to have no problem answering the question I asked him in this thread. And he made himself very clear. No ambiguity in his answer.

These things are no small matter. Because lives are no small matter.

 2016/5/7 5:57Profile

 I will cause you to walk in My statutes

Hundreds of years before Christ came, God foretold that He would do it all. Through Ezekiel, He explained the New Covenant to the Jews:

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Who is the only one who can perform this heart transplant? God. Notice all of the "I wills" in this passage.

"I will give you a new heart."
"I will put a new spirit within you."
"I will remove the heart of stone."
"I will give you a heart of flesh."
"I will put My Spirit within you."
"I will cause you to walk in My statutes."

People often worry, "Can I keep the law? Can I live up to what God wants me to be?"

Of course, as Paul wrote, we have died to the law (Romans 7:4-6). We no longer have any relationship to it, nor do we look to it in an effort to fulfill it. But the law does reveal the character of God, and God's intent is to manifest His life through us. As He does that, He will Himself fulfill the law through us. Or, in other words, He will reflect His own character. So He says to us, "I will cause you to walk in them. After all, I'm the Lawgiver and the Lawkeeper, so I can cause you to walk in them."

Nothing of God has its point of origin with you. But everything of God will be manifested as you in your world. On the outside, it's going to look like you. But nothing is going to have its point of origin with you. The point of origin is God's "I will" in you.

Jeremiah was the first to record the New Covenant "I wills":

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more" (31:31,33-34).

Aren't the "I wills" in Ezekiel and Jeremiah tremendous? God says, "I will do it." We are the benefactors of those "I wills." As those "I wills" are worked into us and become the reality of our lives, then we do walk in them. That's always been the desire of our hearts, to walk in the ways of the Lord.

As long as these things are just concepts to us, though, truths that seem separate from us, we try to make them happen ourselves. We are programmed to try to do it, but we don't know the inner life, so we are programmed for failure. We do have a new heart, and we want so desperately to do what God wants us to do, but we don't have the power to bring to pass what only God can do.

There isn't any way that we can make life succeed on any other basis than faith in God's "I wills." He will do it. That's the way it works. But it takes time for God to work His "I wills" into us and supplant our own "I wills."

Part of what God said He would do in Ezekiel is completed. He has given us a new heart. He has put a new spirit within us. He has removed our old heart and given us a new one, in which He has also placed His Spirit. That work, already finished, can't be touched. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17, NKJV). God can't do any more for us in the spirit realm than join His Spirit life to our human receiver spirit, and there be united with us in oneness.

The other part of God's work is ongoing. "I will cause you to walk in My statutes." That work of His proceeds in our soul and body. God is lining up our outer being with Himself. But until we see this unseen and eternal truth, we will try to line it up for Him. We will get hold of a new passage of Scripture, a new book, or a new concept, and say, "That's what I want to look like." And we will try to make it happen. I bought just about every how-to book ever written. I never did bother to ask if the authors could actually do it, but I quickly discovered I couldn't. God is the one who does it.

What role does the human being play in this divine encounter? Only one: to be willing. The only thing you can do is be willing and cooperate with the Person in you that can cause it to happen. God doesn't cause anything to happen internally that we don't want to happen. God never stomps on our will. He loves it, caresses it, enfolds it, and draws it to Himself, but He never overrides it.

It's a terrible blow to the ego to see that the only part you have to play in God's plan is willingness. A long time ago our foreparents bought a lie. In the Garden, they bought the lie of independent self and independent self-sufficiency. They believed that a real person was self-sufficient.

There are popular movements today built entirely on that premise. They're building up the self. You know what you get? More self. If you're successful, you get more vain. If you're not, you get self-condemnation. It's a dead end.

God does it all. Our part is to be willing. If we're willing and cooperate, "I will cause you to walk in My statutes and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." That's when it comes back to you - not as the point of origin but as the willing outward expresser of His life.

In Galatians 2:20, after saying, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," Paul then talks of "the life which I now live in the flesh [the physical body]."

We do live, but Christ lives through us. "I will cause you to walk in them, but you will do it. I will cause it, but you will do it." That's the exciting part of this life, seeing God work out through us what He has worked into us. We see Him work out Whom He has worked in. And we are inwardly involved with all that He is doing.

God used the most disappointing chapter in my Christian life to begin to show me this. That episode became the necessary prerequisite for my greatest blessing. The Holy Spirit told me, "Look, you're trying to live a life you were never meant to live. But I can live the life in you, as you, that you're now trying to live on your own."

That's good news, isn't it? There is Someone who can live the life. He can live the life perfectly acceptable to the Father. Our primary role is to cooperate and be willing for Him to do it. He is willing, you are willing - that's the secret. He will live the life.

The Son has taken up His residence in us. His purpose is the same as it was during His earthly walk: to do the will of the Father. What the Holy Spirit does in us (not out through us in activity but in us as Teacher) is continually line us up with the true Person in us. That's why ongoing revelation is needed. The more understanding of His nature that He gives us, the more we fall in line with it, because that's the true desire of our new heart.

Previously, we were trying to produce this ourselves. Now, we're watching Him do it. We're being changed into His image from glory to glory by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). More and more, without any kind of striving or effort, our whole will, indwelt by His Spirit's will, is just flowing with Him. We have always wanted to do His will. The Holy Spirit just brings that true desire to the surface, out from our spirit. Ultimately, we get to a place within where we don't know if something is our voice or His, because they become so one. So, like Jesus, we say, "My will is to do His will." Our will has been captured by God.

 2016/5/7 6:22


Dear Savannah (are you a brother or sister?)

I don't know how to answer a question about marriage (a human) thing, as it pertains to Gods relationship with man, without bringing up other related human ideas. Such as adultery and divorce.

And at the root of these questions is, "how can we, if we are indeed married to Christ, ever become "unmarried"?

Which is almost the same as asking, "if we are saved, can we ever lose our salvation"? I think that has already been addressed in this thread by several people, but if you or others believe in the basic Calvinist tenats of TULIP, we will go around and around infinitum on this. No fruit will come of it.

So yes, to your direct question, I do believe that we can be "married" to Christ but then choose to walk away from Him and ask for a divorce, or in essence become "unmarried" to Him.

I have people who are very close to me who have done this very thing.

Regarding Zac Poonen, he may be wrong on many things but he has never tortured and had killed anyone who disagrees with him, so he's still okay in my book:-)

 2016/5/7 9:03

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010

 Re: Jeremiah 32:40

"I do believe that we can be "married" to Christ but then choose to walk away from Him and ask for a divorce, or in essence become "unmarried" to Him."

Shall we believe you or God?
He says, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jeremiah 32:40

And just Who are the persons covenanting in this everlasting covenant ? Please answer!

The marriage covenant is a man and a woman(human) covenanting to keep it. The everlasting covenant is Divine.

Flesh or spirit...which is greater -

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one flesh with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1Cor 6

 2016/5/8 10:06Profile

Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK


There seems to be a very fundemental misunderstanding about the nature of the analogy of Christ's bride. Who is the bride of Christ? It is His church, the body of believers. It is a corporate bride. In this analogy Christ is not married to multitudes of individuals, but to ONE bride, of whom we are part of if we are remain in faith. To try and force the marriage analogy between christ and each individual person is to make a grave error.

The second point is that the marrige has not takeen place yet, but we as his body are betrothed to Christ at this presnt time and again this is a corporate betrothal.

The passage in Romans quoted in the OP is taking the analogy of marriage to explain how their relationship to the law has ended and therefore we can be joined to Christ. Paul is not using it to discuss about OSAS or such subjects. It is bad exegesis to read that or anything else
into it.

Edit: Just to clarify if it is not clear. Christ will never forsake His bride and will remain faithful to her for all etetnity. We can choose to be part of that bride or not. If anyone departs and rejects Him, He will still have His bride, but they will not be a part of it. His bride is the perfect bride known to Him from eternity.


 2016/5/8 11:51Profile

 Re: HeyDave

Hi brother Dave,
I agree with what you have written, very helpful thank you!

 2016/5/8 12:29

 Re: Savannah

"Shall we believe you or God? "

I am not asking you to believe me, you asked me a question and I answered it. This is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. I am happy that my opinion agrees with (imho) one of the worlds most godly and anointed teachers I have ever encountered...Zac Poonen. Who to my knowledge has never lifted a single finger to hurt anyone, far less those who opposed him.

On the other side you have the opposite opinion - which agrees with John Calvin who, being a murderer - tortured and killed those who disagreed with his doctrines.

We do not even have to debate their doctrines...just compare the fruit of their lives. Jesus gave us this very good advice in Matthew 7...something that has saved me from a lot of heart ache to this day.

Personally I have no desire to argue over doctrine, or anything for that matter. These doctrinal arguments never change the other persons viewpoint, but they often reveal what is in our heart...what "spirit we are of". I stepped into this thread, to help protect new christians and the unlearned who lurk in these halls from being tainted by the false doctrine of OSAS.

I agree 100% with Zac Poonen that,"the doctrine of OSAS is responsible for sending more people to hell than any other doctrine that man has preached".

 2016/5/8 12:29

 I am no fan of John Calvin

Please note that I have never been a Calvinist.
I am not now a Calvinist and I do not plan on becoming one in the future.

I do believe God's word where He says, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jeremiah 32:40


"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 2016/5/8 13:08

 Re: I am no fan of John Calvin

Because Paul says that many WILL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, we have too inquire as to what the Lord meant in Jeremiah 32:40? Why the seeming contradiction? Yet, we know there are no contradictions in God. There are always two sides to the coin. This is a case where we could take one scripture if we wanted and make a doctrine out of it. But, what does the full counsel of God communicate to us?

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 2016/5/8 13:23

 Re: I am no fan of John Calvin

Agree brother Tuc,
As you pointed out, God says, "...they shall not depart from me." And again, "...I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances"

False teachers go on to make these things mean what they do not mean, which is to say that man has no free will and cannot reject Gods hand on them or His Spirit within them. They twist the scriptures to teach that man no longer has a free will and is a robot who is literally controlled by the Holy Spirit and has no part to play in this relationship with the indwelling Christ.

But what really happens with born again believers? Do they never depart from God and do they always walk in His statutes? Of course not, which is why we must consider the whole counsel of Gods Word if we hope to understand the new covenant/new birth. There are few teachers that I know, better at teaching these things than Tozer, Reidhead and Poonen.

 2016/5/8 13:27

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