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Discussion Forum : General Topics : 144k Zealous Jews, 2 untouchable prophets, flying angel

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 Re:

Thanks for the clarification. I did know the pre trib had those strange views.

 2016/4/28 9:39
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Ice begs the question: Exactly how are people saved if not by the Holy Spirit's work? If He is no longer indwelling believers after the rapture, how can anyone EVER hope to be converted? How is anyone made a new creature in Christ without Him?

This has far reaching implications. Our brothers and sisters of a certain large denomination who almost uniformly believe in a pretrib rapture as Ice, et.al. teach it must ask, 'If the Holy Spirit converts a person from death to life now, how on earth will people be saved after the rapture? If He doesn't work in conversion then, can we save ourselves without Him now?' Mind blowing admission, and IMO it exposes the most severe type of mistake in their view. Has anyone of them explained exactly how the Spirit works but doesn't work after the rapture?

It is not an answer to say, "Well, it will be like the OT." No, it won't. Jesus said of the Spirit, before His crucifixion and way before Pentecost in Acts 2, "He is with you and shall be in you." Ice and the article quite clearly say, in essence, "He won't be with them." The "with you" statement of Jesus admits of an old covenant presence of the Spirit. That does not jibe with Him working and being active on the one hand but "taken out of the way" prior to a rapture and tribulation-period revival.

I am not arguing, here, BTW. I am eagerly, desperately, trying to understand all this because it is either largely passe and just one other thing in the basket of life right now or the most important thing ever right now.


EDIT: What about the nature of God? Jesus taught that God's care for His own came with an assurance that He will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. He referred to Him as "a good gift" and "Comforter" and so many other names. Is God Himself holding back that which Jesus said He would give? How does this comport with all of John 17?


_________________
Tim

 2016/4/28 10:18Profile









 Re:

Yeah,
I believe that the pre-tribulation Dispensational view has some serious issues. I think there's an upcoming debate in Colorado between Thomas Ice (Pre-Trib Dispensationalism) & Joel Richardson (Post-Trib Historic Premillinealism). I would like to see this one & hear the differing views & what scriptural basis they are each founded on & what challenges are brought to each. I'd also love to see Michael Brown (Historic Premillinealism & Jewish Restorationism) debate with someone like Sam Storms (Amillinealist). I know they are friends (as are Joel Richardson & Sam - they were in the same small home group for years together) & Michael Brown has interviewed Sam before (they were both speaking against the overly broad brush-strokes against all continuists put forth at the "Strange Fire Conference"). It would be good to hear brothers who have differing views, but are respectful of one another & don't accuse the others of "not being true brethren" or something because of varying eschatological views. Anyways, I may try to check out the debate between Ice & Richardson myself.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/28 10:43
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Under this scenario

The most tribulation saints can hope for is Christ "with you" rather than Christ "in you" the hope of glory."

Plus, part of the teaching is that since parts of the New Testament pertain only to the church the tribulation saints will have be able to determine which parts belonged to the church now gone and which parts are meant only for them as they move through the tribulation.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/28 10:47Profile









 Re:

And they just make this stuff up as they go along...and people believe it.

Sigh!

edit: You can disagree without accusing others of not being "true brethren". You can even say a specific salvation doctrine is not in keeping with the Gospel of salvation delivered by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. There is only way to be saved and that is to receive Jesus Christ by His Spirit. It is not about head knowledge and agreeing with doctrine, but rather receiving a Person, by the Holy Spirit. Anything else, is false.

Many don't understand the basics of Salvation so anything that deviates and "sounds good", is accepted. Satan is always attacking the Person of Jesus Christ. There is no salvation without the Holy Spirit. There is no new creation, new man, new heart, new spirit. We are not returning to the OT.

What "age" do pretribbers call the next age?

 2016/4/28 10:58









 Re: Julius

I think Pretribbers would call the age to come the millennium.

Not trying to be funny. But it seems that pretribbers are focused more on the millennium. Then on Eternal Kingdom that comes afterwards.

Brother Blaine

 2016/4/28 11:47





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