| just a question|
I wish to get a straight yes or no answer:
Is spourgeon, Bunyan and Bonar infallible teachers?
| 2016/4/25 19:39|
| Re: just a question|
The only source of infallible doctrine is the Bible.
| 2016/4/25 19:44||Profile|
| Re: |
But neither are we ,or our interpretations..
| 2016/4/25 19:57||Profile|
| Re: just a question|
Thanks friends. I'm happy for those answers. My mind was really troubled. I've not been to any theology school, but I honestly will not have a racist who have a different salvation plan for the Jews and another for the GGentiles, to be my God. If the bible actually teaches that at the rapture, all racial Jews will suddenly be saved, and have no need of being saved by faith alone in Christ, then I'm absolutely confused. Thanks Brother Julius for ur post. And for thos who take spourgeon, etc, for final authority, pls don't forget they aren't infallable
| 2016/4/25 20:09|
| Re: |
Greg encourages us to use articles and sermons on SI which have been vetted and approved as being in line with traditional Christian thought and Christian Orthodoxy. As he previously indicated, they are here to encourage and build us up. I think you will find these two sermons/articles a blessing. There is a lot of speculation about what happens when Jesus comes back, but in the interim, it should not be difficult for us to agree that God is all about glorifying His Son as He makes "one new man", "in Christ", of both Jew and Gentile.
Blessings to you.
The Good Olive Tree
Excerpt from George Warnock's "The Good Olive Tree".
"There is but "one hope," not two; not one for the Church, and another for Israel. "There is no difference," for at the price of His Cross our Lord tore down "the middle wall of partition between us". For what purpose? To make "one new man, so making peace". (See Eph. 2:14-15; 4:4-6.) A restoration to temples, and altars, and candlesticks, and the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of a red heifer? No--this would be the greatest of abominations! But this restoration must be something greater, something grander, something far and beyond what we have yet known in the Church and it will come about by the resurrection life of the Lord Jesus, moving in this "one new man" that God made of Jew and Gentile when He tore down the wall of partition. It is this wonderworking wisdom of God that causes the apostle to cry out:
"O the depth of the riches Both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, And his ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)."
And this one by T. Austin Sparks - A New Israel
And here is an excerpt:
"Exclusive-ism God never meant that when He took Israel out of the nations, made them a distinct people, constituted them His Own peculiar people. He never meant that. He only meant to plant them in the nations to show the nations what a God He is, WHAT A GREAT GOD HE IS; and this startled and stunned Jonah that God could ever think in mercy upon anybody outside of Israel, that God could ever think in mercy upon Nineveh.
And so you have this exclusive-ism all the way through, and that is the trouble in the New Testament with the Lord Jesus: it is the exclusive-ism of Judaism, that is the battleground. The battle in the life of the Apostle Paul was that. He was hammering at this brick wall of Jewish exclusive-ism, and all his sufferings are because of that.
This new Israel is so much greater than the old because Christ, this Messiah, is so much greater than their conception of a Messiah. We have got to recognize the immense dimensions of the new Israel and resist exclusive-ism where Christ is concerned, as we would resist a plague. I am not talking about fundamental truths and the personality of Christ; I am talking about the greatness of this One Who is introduced in Hebrews: God, ...hath at the end of these days spoken in His Son, Whom He appointed Heir of... an exclusive party? No, of all things. That is Pauls great word all the way through: all things, ...all things, ...all things, and in the end, to sum up all things in Christ. And if I need to safeguard, I am not talking about universalism. I am talking about Gods ultimate realm and sphere where it will be nothing but Christ. The rest will be outside altogether; wherever that outside is, it will be outside and not inside. For without...that is the last word of Revelation, For without are the dogs, (and so on), and everyone loving and making a lie. That is false, that is out, that is gone."
| 2016/4/25 20:54|
| Re: |
I will have a slice of agenda with my coffee please.
| 2016/4/25 21:28|
| Re: |
RE:///.. but I honestly will not have a racist who have a different salvation plan for the Jews and another for the GGentiles, to be my God. If the bible actually teaches that at the rapture, all racial Jews will suddenly be saved, and have no need of being saved by faith alone in Christ, then I'm absolutely confused.///
I personaly do not see it in Scripture, thus why I do not believe it.
but if that is how God does it, than we happily except it,
It is only by Grace that any are saved.
| 2016/4/25 22:14||Profile|
| Re: Brother Iyke|
Hello bro. I don't know which website or link you may have used or perhaps been led that states that after Christ returns Jews will be automatically be saved without placing their faith in Christ. Is is possible to obtain this same link so as I might take a look? I'm really curious about that.
As far as Spurgeon, Bonar and Bunyan go, I found readily accessible quotes by them from their own writings that show conclusively that they never taught that Jews could be saved at any time without placing their faith in Christ. So if that is perhaps a beef with them in some quarters then they never in my opinion came close to teaching such a thing. My goal here is not to persuade you of my view which is premill but rather to set any record straight regarding their teachings that may be up for question as to the nature of the salvation they believed the Jews will one day undergo. One can disagree that the Jews will be regathered eventually in faith etc. or that Israel is still relevant. That is okay if one disagress with that. But I think it is unfair for anyone, not necessarily you, to say that those who believe in such a restoration believe the Jews of that day will be saved without placing their faith in Christ. And if one says, "Well, Spurgeon, Bonar and Bunhyan believed that," then I would wish to point out that they DID NOT believe that.
"We cannot keep looking for the restoration of the scattered Israelites to the land, which God has given them by a covenant of salt. We shall also look for the time when they shall believe in Jesus the Messiah whom they have rejected, and shall rejoice in Jesus of Nazareth, who today they despise."
(From sermon "The Whole Heartedness of God in Blessing His People." Preached July 29, 1887)
ISRAEL IS TO HAVE A SPIRITUAL RESTORATION OR A CONVERSION.
Both the text and the context teach this. The promise is that they shall renounce their idols and, behold, they have already done so! “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols.” Whatever faults the Jew may have, he certainly has not idolatry. “The Lord your God is one God,” is a Truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned forever from the worship of all images of any sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy.
She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion—she is to love her God. “They shall be My people and I will be their God.” The unseen but Omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by His ancient people. They are to come before Him in His own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected. They will come into Covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us— “I will make a Covenant of peace with them,” and Jesus is our peace—therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the Covenant of Grace with them—that Covenant of which Christ is the federal Head, the Substance and the Surety.
They are to walk in God’s ordinances and statutes and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who has given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God and that this conversion is to be permanent. The tabernacle of God is to be with them! The Most High is, in a special manner, to have His sanctuary in the midst of them forever more so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted.
The hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God and they shall be the people of God, world without end.
We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first—whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards—or converted first and then restored. They are to be restored and they are to be converted, too. Let the Lord send these blessings in His own order and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort that this thing shall be and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit and reign among His people gloriously."
(From Sermon #582, June 16, 1864: "The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews")
“I believe in Israel's restoration to their homeland and their conversion to their Messiah.”
“Life lies before us. Let us not waste it. Let your life be useful. Our first concern must, of course, be for ourselves. We must know the Messiah of whom we speak; we must have tasted His love and have clasped His cross. We must not preach an unknown God. It is with this consciousness that we have been reconciled to God that we preach the everlasting gospel, in the spirit of him who has said, “God has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ...and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (II Cor 5:18)
“In some places, Jewish people call the Christian, “The man who says he has a Redeemer. Let this be a true name for us and in the strength of that name let us plead with the Jewish people, till they shall also say, “I know that my Redeemer lives.” (Job 19:25)
(From "The Jew" - Bonar)
I couldn't find any direct quotes yet from Bunyan because his works are very numerous but more than once source commenting on his works states that he firmly believed in the eventual restoration fo the Jews and the eventual conversion of this remnant by faith In the atoning cross of their Messiah. (END)
A few thoughts. God's promise to Abraham was never racist or exclusivist when the Lord promised that in you "all families of the earth shall be blessed." God's plan in Christ expressed to Abraham was always universal in scope and always has included the Jews and Gentiles. How else can almost 2,000 years of Gentile inclusion be explained? That's "all families of the earth being blessed." There has been nothing exclusive about that which has really in effect worked detrimentally for the Jews. The eventual inclusion of the remainig natural branches will really be a item for praise I would think because if their rejection has been the reconciling of the world (working in immense favor for Gentiles) what will their (the natural branches) acceptance again be but life from the dead? It won't in any way spoil the untiy of the one new man in Christ. Almost 2,000 years of Gentile inclusion in the body of Christ amply demonstrates that. Yet even if you disagree with those comments, and you are free to do so, it still cannot be said that many that do believe that after Christ returns Jews will be saved also believe they will be saved without placing their faith in Christ. That never has been taught and is not presently being taught. This "different way" of salvation has never been preached or taught by those who hold to the view that Israel still has a prophetic destiny as a redeemed nation. All must and will come through the cross.
Thank you. Comments welcome.
| 2016/4/25 22:58||Profile|
| Re: |
Good stuff Docs. Well said brother
| 2016/4/26 1:42|
| Re: |
Maybe it is not just one way or the other.
King David reigned over Israel.
Then the Kingdom split.
Then Juda and Benjamin were fighting war against Israel (2 Chronicles 11:1)
Let's put this aside for a moment.
"Israel " had 12 tribes (if you count Joseph as one)
All the talk is now about the "Jews"
What happens to the other tribes, the "lost" tribes.
What is God's plan for them?
Just wondering if someone has ever thought about that?
| 2016/4/26 3:38|