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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions about the proposed Millennium

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 Re:

Thank you for your viewpoints. I am glad that you can freely share them? I will study them closely but will not reply in deference to Greg's wishes.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56763&forum=34

 2016/4/24 19:31









 Re:

Well stated Docs. Well said.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/24 20:52









 Re:

Edited for prior mistakes (sorry 😊)

Docs,
That made me think of a lot of things too brother. For one thing, people with an honest to desire to honor the scriptures might understandably point to the passages which say "there is now neither male, nor female, Jew nor Greek (or gentile), circumcision nor uncircumcision on Christ", &/or like we read in Ephesians in our fellowship today, "God has broken down the wall of partition between Jew & Gentile..." These are Biblical truths. Praise the Lord! But a difference in specific role/calling is another issue altogether than a difference "in value" or in covenantal nature. Let me explain: sure, no one is saved APART FROM THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Amen! No one is getting in just because they belong to this nation or that nation. Maybe that gets lost or misunderstood sometimes (lost in translation). BUT, we must also reconcile Romans 11 in particular, Acts 1, Revelation, & the prophets., so there can be a difference in "roles/calling". And the context shows this very thing! "There is no difference in male nor female". Really? No difference? But doesn't massive swaths of scripture go on to show there are differences? "I don't permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man", and many other similar references. So what gives? A difference in VALUE? NO! A thousand times no. But a difference in role/calling? Yes. Absolutely.
Just like how there are leaders in the body. Shepherds, teachers, elders, deacons. Are they MORE IMPORTANT IN VALUE to God than others? Of course not. But do they have different callings/roles? Yes. Absolutely. And if you look at Romans 11 which clearly speaks of a coming sovereign salvation of Israel being grafted back in, not exalting ourselves against the root & warning sternly against it, etc. You can see that just how the husband is to "love & serve the wife, laying down his lie for her, Even as Christ did for the church", you can also see in the prophets many references to Israel in the end ruling & serving the nations (whatever all that looks like exactly) as a "servant leader" too. Otherwise, the prophets make no sense, Romans 11 makes no sense (if you apply a consistent hermeneutic of interpretation of plainly spoken wording, not the language of Romans 9 where he speaks of "spiritual
Israel"), unless you read it plainly, but CLEARLY speaks of "the root" & us "being the wild olive shoot grafted into them & not the other way around", etc.
So they aren't "more important" Or valuable than we, but it's about God's covenant & promise keeping reputation & character on this people God Himself has chosen for a specific purpose in the beginning & in the end. I don't have to worship at & kiss the feet of Jews like they are my "master" or something, but I would also never "boast against the root" because to do such is to demand before God, "THATS NOT FAIR!" What God Himself has decreed and His Zeal & prophetic fulfillment will accomplish it. It's a beautiful thing & mystery because it's God at work as He sovereignly wills, not me (who am I to tell God what is or isn't fair? See Romans 7) made me think of a lot of things too brother. I am praying for their salvation & longing for that day (though it comes with great trial), because it means THE KING IS COMING!
I long for that day & seeing God save Israel is the EndTimes mystery of seeing His Grace & sovereign election even still at work in an amazing way. And I love to see the radical (or any) Muslims come to Christ too, because it's like seeing Paul come to Christ. And Christ is going MASSIVELY to the Jews & Muslims at this hour in dreams & visions (as well as other ethnos) & it all makes me filled the prophetic expectation of the soon coming return of our Lord!
Hallelujah!
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/24 21:57









 Re:

And even the language in Ephesians, "the two become one man" (Jew & Gentile) reminded me of "the two shall become one flesh" (husband & wife). Again, just an example of "2 becoming one", but still having unique roles/callings.

 2016/4/25 7:47
joliboy11
Member



Joined: 2011/9/16
Posts: 207
Philippines

 Re:

Just want to share this:

The Nations in Relation to God
-Art Katz
We are all familiar with the Scripture, “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof, and the nations and those that dwell therein.” We have quoted this Scripture many times, but we have not really believed it, and have therefore allowed the nations to indulge themselves in their independence as if they have no obligation to God. This is a sinful neglect of God, and when the Lord comes, He will judge the nations for that failure to seek Him.
Every culture is full of hostility against God, although its external appearance may seem gracious. National culture may be dear and familiar to us, but I am persuaded that the origin of national cultures comes not from above, but from below. The nations have an independent mind of their own. In many cases, they are willing to allow us a Sunday presence. They will tolerate that as long as we respect the difference between the sacred and the secular. They will give us one or two hours for the sacred on Sunday, but the real affairs of men, where the important decisions are made, is where they do not welcome our intrusion.
The church continues to allow the nations to indulge that mentality. Independence from God is as much a sin for a nation as for an individual. We have an obligation to bring them God’s perspective, the divine perspective to the secular mind, for if we do not sound a warning to them, who else will? No longer should we condescend to their terms and their categories.
But look what Paul says to the epitome of secular men in Athens, in Acts 17:26-31. This is the glory of ancient Greece, the same architecture that Hitler used in Germany. Greek architecture emphasized great, monumental pillars to underline the importance of their government and culture. Nazism was a re-creating again of those values. It was, and is, a civilization that celebrates man. But God has purposes for the nations; they were formed and created by Him. That is what Paul tells the Greeks, “He has made from one blood every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having appointed their boundaries, times and habitations.” If someone makes something, they own it, and the maker decides its purpose and use. That is true with the potter and his clay. It is true of God with His church. It is true of God with Israel. He made it and formed it for Himself, and so also the nations.
It says that God, “established their boundaries, their times and their habitations,” and who has ever considered that in verse 27 the purpose is given, namely, “that they should seek God, if perhaps they might find Him though He is not far from any one of us.” This verse was a turning point for me. Up until that moment I had always thought of this verse only in personal or individual terms. But God has established nations in order that the nations themselves would seek Him. What is God’s purpose for us as a nation? Why did God create our nation? Have we sought Him for His purpose for us as a nation? The tragic history of Germany can be traced to their failure to seek God for their purpose in being. Instead, the nation has sought its own national ambitions, and still seeks them now. It has been fifty years since the death of Hitler, but how do we explain Neo-Nazism and nationalism that is springing up again? It is a spirit that is rising again in exact proportion to the rise of German national ambition, independent of God. In fact, I do not know of a single country that has sought God’s purposes for itself. What would God say if we asked Him?
We ourselves need to understand that Israel is not just ‘another’ ethnic group among the nations. It is God’s nation, and He calls it His inheritance. And “according to the number of the sons of Israel,” in Deuteronomy 32, “He has established the number of the nations.” How humbling for the nations to consider that their whole existence, their boundaries and their times are altogether related to the nation Israel. In other words, Israel is central to the nations, which is why “the law must go forth out of Zion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem,”—the appointed center.
But it is not a law for itself alone, but unto the nations, “that they should study war no more and beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.” We, as the church, need to align ourselves with the mind of God, and understand His purposes for His creation. Further, we need to communicate that reality to the nation itself, for we ought to be God’s prophetic presence in the nation. How should secular and non-biblical men understand this except it be told them by the “nation” within the nation—God’s Israel, His covenantal people, His prophetical people, i.e., His church? It says in verse 31 (Acts 17), “He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness”—not just individuals, but the world itself which He created. “God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son” (John 3:16). We have not thought in terms of the world. God has a plan for the nations and this age concludes with God’s theocratic rule over the nations.
That which God has created and formed, He has every right to determine its purpose. He has made the nations for Himself and His purposes, and what do we know as individual believers when we gave up our own autonomy and independence, and gave ourselves to the purposes of God who made us? We received God’s peace and joy; to surrender to the purposes of God is life itself.
We need to pray for our own nation, but not in a sentimental way as if revival would be enough. No, the deepest repentance, going all the way back to the origins of the nation that has been so hospitable to pagan gods and still is. Lust, incest, sodomy and abortion are here because we have not sought God who made the nation. There may well be a purpose for our American nation, not yet fulfilled, that has to do with Jews in the Last Days. There is a reason why in Amos 9 God says, “I will sift Israel through all the nations.”
What is God’s strategy? Not only to find a remnant out of Israel at that time, but also to sift the nations themselves through which Jews will pass through. The nations needs to be alerted to that soon-coming time by the prophetic church in its midst. It will blow the trumpet and not hold back, and have a view of its own purpose within the nation, much larger and deeper than what we thought, and not allow the nation to define us as a Sunday afterthought.

 2016/4/25 10:06Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1976


 Re: Thank you joliboy

I believe I have read that article before some time in the past but I just enjoyed reading it again.

Art speaks of there being a divine strategy behind the nation of Israel and what it will pass through as it is sifted again among the nations. I agree with that and believe that the coming events leading to the second advent of Christ will be divinely designed and wise in strategy so as to instruct the nations. In my opinion, the the end days will not be just a set of chronological events to happen one after the other but will be a series of events desgined to instruct the nations and mankind. God will allow again the valididty and trustworthiness of His word to once again be brought to the attention of the nations and this in itself will be a sifting of the nations. It's my opinion that the controversy which is to swirl around Israel at the end will eventually spill over into the nations as God will allow once more the question of the trustworthiness of His ancient word to be seen and questioned so as to cause the nations to come to a decision. It will be a series of events but also a time of divine instruction. Part of the church's role will be to proclaim the excellencies of Christ and His atoning work and to show how this one peculiar nation is still central in God's redemptive plan and purposes as the eschatology of the everlasting covenant is worked out before the eyes of all. Therefore the nations will not be able to say they were not uninformed or not aware of the issues. The whole globe is to be confronted again so as to force decisions to be made and this confrontation is to come in my opinion through the mouth of the church who are the only ones that have been made stewards over and have knowledge of this insight.

Thank you bro and blessings. These are my opinions.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/25 10:48Profile









 Re:

Good stuff brothers.

Also, thanks for posting "The Theocratic Kingdom" by Art Katz again too. Been many years since I heard that message & going back having done more study, prayer, & seeking the Lord on these things, it was good to hear. Always loved Art Katz.

God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/25 13:23
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1976


 Re: Servanthood and God's glory

It's been said that God's glory is best expressed in His servanthood lived out through others. The glory is not always a powerful presence that radiates with shekinah beams and causes those near it to be hardly ablle to stand etc. That's a tangible expression of God's glory and is legitimate. But God's "humble glory" can also be seen in acts of servanthood and service to others. When Christ girded Himself and stooped to wash the disciples feet that was a demonstration of God's glory as much as any cloud of glory and power and light hanging over a congregation. In the same way, God's glory wil lbe seen in a redeemed Israel because this now lowly and contrite remnant will have girded themselvs so as to wash the feet of the nations. Nations wil not learn way anymore and instead will be shown a living example of service to others as the nations themselves begin to model the character of the Redeemer King bodily present again. He is the Suffering SERVANT and the nation will have suffered so as to become a servant. There will be no lording it over the nations as the nation that was the chieftest of sinners will now have become the chieftest of servants. In this way the glory of God will be spread among the nations as the nations learn war no more but begin to learn to wash one another's feet. Amen!


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/26 9:37Profile









 Re: Chrch History

PP,
Not trying to dig up bones, but I ran across something that answers your question & does show Judeo-Centric Eschatoogical Restoration of Israel to the land (again as I said, who said what when in the early church fathers isn't an end all be all "litmus" of anything to me, but you asked):

Ishodad of Merv (FL. 850)
If all of these previous predictions are not satisfactory to prove that these men were not influenced by natural trends or ideas popular in their day (David Baron, Nathaniel West, JC Ryle, Septimus Sears, Charles Spurgeon, Adolh Saphir, Horatious Bonar, Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, Jonathan Edwards, Sir Isaac Newton, Wilhelmus A Brakel, Thomas Brightman, etc.), then consider this one final prediction that dates back as far back as the ninth century. Ishodad of Merv was a Christian bishop over the city of Hadatha near modern-day Tiberius. In his commentary on Micah 5:3, he wrote, "He shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has brought forth.' This what the prophet calls Jerusalem. This means He will abandon them to the afflictions of captivity until the time of the return. This means that these predictions will not come true before they are back from their captivity."
When did Ishodad declare this? It is written in 850 AD, 1,100 years before the modern Jewish state was born!"

"When a Jew Rules the World", Joel Richardson, page 203, chapter 14, "The Peophesied Jewish Return to their Land"

Again, don't care to argue & not the strength of why I believe it, but only answering you cause you asked friend.
God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/26 9:53









 Re:

Quote:
It's been said that God's glory is best expressed in His servanthood lived out through others. The glory is not always a powerful presence that radiates with shekinah beams and causes those near it to be hardly ablle to stand etc. That's a tangible expression of God's glory and is legitimate. But God's "humble glory" can also be seen in acts of servanthood and service to others. When Christ girded Himself and stooped to wash the disciples feet that was a demonstration of God's glory as much as any cloud of glory and power and light hanging over a congregation. In the same way, God's glory wil lbe seen in a redeemed Israel because this now lowly and contrite remnant will have girded themselvs so as to wash the feet of the nations. Nations wil not learn way anymore and instead will be shown a living example of service to others as the nations themselves begin to model the character of the Redeemer King bodily present again. He is the Suffering SERVANT and the nation will have suffered so as to become a servant. There will be no lording it over the nations as the nation that was the chieftest of sinners will now have become the chieftest of servants. In this way the glory of God will be spread among the nations as the nations learn war no more but begin to learn to wash one another's feet. Amen!



Docs, Greg, is it ok if I ask docs a few questions about his paragraph, above?

It won't be about eschatology or the millenium, I'm done with that. Just some questions for clarity sake. Docs and I know how to converse with one another.

 2016/4/26 10:24





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