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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions about the proposed Millennium

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 Re: That spiritual king within us

/Today, we are members of Jerusalem above by faith in Christ. We serve a spiritual King in His spiritual kingdom, which is within us./

Yet that spiritual king within us is destined to physically and bodily return to a PHYSICAL EARTH and the Jerusalem which is above above is destined to ascend from above and come to a PHYSICAL EARTH.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN from God, (Rev 21:10)

23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

24 And THE NATIONS (of earth) shall walk by its light, and the kings OF THE EARTH shall bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:23-24)

9 For THE EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:9)

The EARTH will not be missing at all when the spiritual kingdom comes to its full manifestation when the spiritual king within us returns bodily to EARTH. The spiritual king's feet will bodily touch down on solid terra firma.

"...the emphasis on the earth and land is too pervasive and too deeply rooted in the biblical doctrine of creation itself to be explained away on this basis. To dismiss all the emphasis on the earth in favor of a more "spiritual" view of the eternal state raises serious questions." (Waldron, "End Times Made Simple." - 227.)


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/23 17:59Profile









 Re:

That spiritual city is "down", now. The Church on earth.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


It is a statement of divine activity within the Believer (Kingdom of God is within you) not a geographical location. Just like we are born from above (John 3:3,7), but are still on earth.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Jesus Christ is "the light of the world" (John 8:12), the "light of men" (John 1:4), having "come into the world to enlighten every man" (John 1:9). The light of Christ enlightens all within this holy city.

"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (I John 1:5), so in the eternal day of the Lord "there will be no night there" (21:25; 22:5).

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Jesus Christ is the "way" (John 14:6), having provided open access to this "holy city" by His substitutionary death.

"Its gates shall never be shut" (21:25), just as Isaiah explained that "your gates will be open continually; they will not be closed day or night" (Isa. 60:11). No security measures are necessary, for "Jerusalem will dwell in security" (Zech. 14:11).

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Residency in this city is exclusive to those "whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27), recorded in the heavenly register as having been identified and spiritually united with Jesus Christ.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Just as there was "a river that flowed out of Eden" (Gen. 2:10), John sees "a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb" (22:1). Ezekiel saw water flowing from the temple, and it was announced that "everything will live where the river goes" (Ezek. 47:1-12). Jesus provides that "water of life" (Rev. 7:17; 21:6), for He is the "well of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14) and His indwelling presence produces "rivers of living water" (John 7:38). The psalmist referred to this reality of "a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy dwelling places of the Most High" (Ps. 46:4). Just as "the tree of life was in the middle of the garden" (Gen. 2:9), so John sees the river "in the middle of the street, and on either side of the river was the tree of life" (22:2). Throughout Scripture the "tree of life" represents the abundance of the expression of the character of God. Jesus said, "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). This speaks of "the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Gal. 5:22,23). "The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (22:2), John continues, for they abrogate the effects of the fall of man and restore God's intent for all of His creation.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Is there any more curse to those who are in Christ? Is the throne of God (speaking of authority) and the Lamb in Zion, the Church? Do we not serve the Lord, now? "God is not served with human hands, as though He needed anything" (Acts 17:22), but is "served" by our availability and submission to His Lordship wherein we allow Him to "form Christ" in us (His character expressed in our behavior). Thus we serve as "bond-servants of Christ" (Gal. 1:10).

In accord with Zechariah's prophecy that "there will be no more curse" (Zech. 14:11), John also indicates that in the "beloved city" the "curse" that came in the fall of man (Gen. 3:17) would no longer be present (22:3). Christ took the curse for us on the tree of crucifixion (Gal. 3:13), and Christians need not incur the curses for disobedience (Deut. 27,28) but may participate in the "blessings that are ours in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:3).

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

John saw an intimate heavenly relationship and he describes it as seeing God "face to face". To Moses, God said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live" (Exod. 33:20). In His sermon on the mount Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God" (Matt. 5:8).

There is a sense in which we can "see God" as Christians, for "God has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (II Cor. 4:6), but we still look forward to "seeing Him just as He is" (I John 3:2) "face to face" (I Cor. 13:12). Meanwhile, like Moses, "we endure, as seeing Him who is unseen" (Heb. 11:27).

Those who reside in the spiritual and heavenly "city of peace" have "His name on their foreheads" (22:4), which seems to mean that they are identified with God in Christ as the fruit of the Spirit and the character of Christ is evidenced in their lives.

"They shall reign forever and ever" (22:5). Though we "reign in life now through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 5:17,21) throughout the "thousand years" - Last Days - (Rev. 20:4,6), "if we endure, we shall continue to reign with Him" (II Tim. 2:12) eternally.

I said once that the Book of Revelation was written to serve as an encouragement for Christians of all ages to endure and persevere during the time between the Lord's first coming and second coming as they hope for the consummated victory in Christ. Until that time, Christians must be willing to share in Christ's suffering even unto death. The emphasis of the book of Revelation is not on charting future events eschatologically, but on the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through His Church despite probable mistreatment (in the world ye shall have tribulation) and the temptation to revert to religious self-preservation.

 2016/4/23 19:04









 Re:

What's the point. The twisting never ends in this place
from the other side

 2016/4/23 19:27
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1965


 Re: The spiritual city "down' now?

/That spiritual city is "down", now. The Church on earth.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,/

No it's not. This city comes down after the resurrection from the dead seen in Rev ch 20 and after "the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every one of them according to their deeds" (Rev 20:13). The city comes down out of heaven from God in ch Rev 21 after all this. If the city is "down" now then the resurrection of the dead has taken place already (Rev 20) and Satan has already been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev 20:10). If the city is "down" now then the resuurection of the dead and the final judgment of the devil have already taken place and are just figurative metaphors I guess or things that have already occurred. If that is what you advocate then your hyper-spiritualistic interpretation has caused you to embrace a view full of unmitigated ERROR.

/It is a statement of divine activity within the Believer (Kingdom of God is within you) not a geographical location. Just like we are born from above (John 3:3,7), but are still on earth./

But your "it is not a geographical location" view nullfies it seems any future inclusion of anything earthly. This view that since the kingdom of God is within you and spiritual and therefore altogether non earthly is a Hellenistic and western notion promoted solely by Gentiles who lost sight of the Hebrew worldview that the spiritual and the earthly have always dwelt together in harmony. The scriptures dont go there but go in just the oppposite direction. The "spiritual king" you referred to living on the inside of each of us will one day return bodily to a physical earth and the knowledge of the Lord will cover the EARTH like waters cover the sea. The EARTH is a specific geogrphical location wouldn't you think?

/Jesus Christ is "the light of the world" (John 8:12), the "light of men" (John 1:4), having "come into the world to enlighten every man" (John 1:9). The light of Christ enlightens all within this holy city.

"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (I John 1:5), so in the eternal day of the Lord "there will be no night there" (21:25; 22:5).

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Jesus Christ is the "way" (John 14:6), having provided open access to this "holy city" by His substitutionary death.

"Its gates shall never be shut" (21:25), just as Isaiah explained that "your gates will be open continually; they will not be closed day or night" (Isa. 60:11). No security measures are necessary, for "Jerusalem will dwell in security" (Zech. 14:11)./

You've basically then contradicted yourself. If Christ is tghe light that lightens everyone within this city and also "there will be no night there" then why does Isaiah 60:11 which you qouted say, you gates will not be shut DAY OR NIGHT. Why does one verse say there will be no night there because Christ will be the light yet Isaiah 60:11 describes the city as experiencing DAY and NIGHT.

/The emphasis of the book of Revelation is not on charting future events eschatologically,.../

Then why does it prophesy and speak of the future second advent of Christ at which time the resurection from the dead will occur? Along with the resurrection fromthe dead at Christ's advent which is a future eschatological event Satan's final judgment and destiny is yet eschatological and future (Rev 20:10) The scriptures of Revelation give no credibility at all to the view that the book of Revelation has nothing to do with any future eschatological events. Hyper-spiritulaism run quite a bit amok I think needs to be restrained in your instance. It just ain't like that good bro.

Your friend,

Peace.


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David Winter

 2016/4/24 2:43Profile
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 Re:

Saints,

The position of SermonIndex is that there is a physical thousand year kingdom on earth where the Lord will reign. This has been the position of almost the entire Church since the beginning, ie Apostles, Early Church, right up through to now. Of course there have been different thinking at times but overall this has been the main viewpoint on the larger scale of Church history.

So it seems strange that all of a sudden we can find out the better truth in the last few years before our Lord comes back. It reminds me of things like Head Coverings for sisters, this was a practice in the ENTIRE church for almost 2000 years and now in the last 40-50 years through femnism and liberial theologians many denominations have re-interpreted this passage in 1 Corinthians 11. It should be noted that views on Divorce and Marriage have also been changed but where always believed in one-way for the entire Church age. Name me a denomination that would allow a divorced person to be a teaching elder 50 years ago. There were none! But today it does not matter. The only explanation is that the Church was under severe legalism for almost 2000 years and now it has seen the "light" so to speak.

This is a wonderful statement of faith from the underground house churches in China (a large segment of them): https://archive.org/download/principlesv4/64_StatementofFaith.pdf


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2016/4/24 7:09Profile
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: /// This has been the position of almost the entire Church since the beginning, ie Apostles, Early Church, right up through to now.///

As Frank rightly pointed out it was not the view of the Anabaptist.

From newworldencyclopedia.org "

"Although the term amillennialism, coined sometime in the 1930s, is a new term, its view is never new. The Dutch Reformed amillennialist L. Berkhof correctly observes that this view is "as old as Christianity."[6] It is true that premillennialism in its posttribulational form, known as "chiliasm" (from Greek chilioi, meaning "thousands"), flourished in the first three centuries of the Christian era, during which the Christians generally expected the imminent return of Christ in face of persecutions in the Roman Empire. But, amillennialism also existed side by side. Thus, Justin Martyr (c.100-165), who himself was a premillennialist, referred to the existence of differing views:

I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.[7]
Pseudo-Barnabas (first century), an Apostolic Father who wrote the Epistle of Barnabas, is considered to have been an amillennialist...."

RE: ///It reminds me of things like Head Coverings for sisters, this was a practice in the ENTIRE church for almost 2000 years///

What did the ante nicine headcovering loook like ?

 2016/4/24 8:33Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

I wish someone would answer J's 6 questions with "yes" or "no" answers. It would help clarify what is actually believed by premillenials.

David- you seem to be suggesting, as others have that Julius (or I) do not believe in a literal and physical 2nd coming of Jesus.

I can tell you that I certainly do, and I fairly certain Julius does too.

I just think that when Jesus returns, the Church is raptured and that is when the new heavens and earth are created. There are no second chances for anyone beyond that point.

The belief in a literal 1000 mile cube resting on or near the earth, given the extreme and pervasive symbolic and apocalyptic language of Revelation, is dubious at best.


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Todd

 2016/4/24 8:41Profile
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Chrch History

I still have not found anything from before the time of maimonides that taught the modern Judeo-centric Premillennialism !

Over 1,000 years of Church history with out anything of the central theme of modern Premillennialism

 2016/4/24 8:55Profile









 Re:

Docs,

The mistake that many make is to view Revelation as sequential, chronological events. I don't know about you, but one thing this study has done for me is to remind me of the wonderful, present realities that are available in Jesus Christ. An anemic, powerless, worldly church ignores these realities.

I will let the Word speak for itself. Are these realities present in your life or are you waiting for them to be manifested in the future?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Death had always caused sorrow and tears but death has now been defeated by Jesus Christ and we no longer lament death.

Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

All of Isaiah 35 is now a present reality to those who lay hold of Christ.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

2Co 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

The early church was a rejoicing church.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, IT IS DONE. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Isa 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.


And as you can see in the midst of these verses we have this admonition which is a promise for the future: this underscores that John is encouraging the Church with present realities.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


On the underground church, I don't know if one statement of faith can speak for millions and millions of Chinese Christians. We have to remember that many Chinese Christians were heavily influenced by Darbyism, and even deceived by the rapture teaching. Corrie Ten Boom highlighted this and said this teaching caused many to fall away when persecution came. No where in the NT is the millennium taught. Many take the thousand years on Revelation 20, to be a computationally exact time, rather than a figure of speech as it has previously been used in the Bible.

Modern teachings of Revelation nullify many present realities because they want to turn the book into a book of sequential, chronological events.

 2016/4/24 9:31









 Re:

On the underground church, I don't know if one statement of faith can speak for millions and millions of Chinese Christians. We have to remember that many Chinese Christians were heavily influenced by Darbyism, and even deceived by the rapture teaching. Corrie Ten Boom highlighted this and said this teaching caused many to fall away when persecution came. No where in the NT is the millennium taught. Many take the thousand years on Revelation 20, to be a computationally exact time, rather than a figure of speech as it has previously been used in the Bible.

Modern teachings of Revelation nullify many present realities because they want to turn the book into a book of sequential, chronological events.

I think the Chinese church would tell us not to take their word for it, search the scriptures for yourself.

 2016/4/24 9:34





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