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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Indiana State Trooper Fired.......

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 Re:

Not saying they are "equivalent" (equals). Just saying if he can ask her about her NC basketball jersey but can't ask her about Jesus, I believe something is wrong. And she's not under arrest in the normal flow of a traffic stop until he asks her to place her hands behind her back & says "you are under arrest". Also, unless there's video/audio, we don't know the nature of the full conversation in the stop. If she was crying, upset, telling him her life was a mess, or just talking small talk, should he just "stick to the nature of the stop" as a believer or share Christ? And if he is then punished (& sued, of course no lawyer just loves to sue just because theirs a potential big name case & big money involved, right? Tongue in cheek as one who worked for a lawyer, was pre-law & went through Paralegal law training & then worked with a famous ex-DA mafia criminal defense lawyer who is in now in Federal Prison for involvement with the mob & cartels on my own trial defense). So is that not persecution.

As far as cops wanting to talk Islam vs Christ. Honestly, I wish they would. Opprrtunity for me to witness boldly. As far as school, they do it all the time for Islam & it's protected but mention Jesus & a bomb goes off (that's not persecution either I guess). One more reason to do whatever sacrifices are necessary to homeschool your kids IMHO (and I know that's not always possible with a single mom, but more "possible" than many think it is if you're willing to sacrifice for it).

Anyways, I am not comparing this cop witnessing on duty with a Syrian Christian being beheaded by ISIS, but I believe they are both forms of persecution by definition. Anyone remember the prophetic word Paul Washer shared that's here on SI a few years ago? He says, "you need to get it out of your mind that Christian's are persecuted for their sincere Christian Faith. That is the case (or root cause), but that's not the story heard & told publicly. They are persecuted as enemies of the state, as those who pervert children, as those who have fallen for a rouse & who have nothing to contribute to society...."

This is just a merry go round at this point, so I'm out, but this is a (although specific, mild, etc.) form of persecution to get Christians to shut their mouths in the public sphere. People even mock that the Christian bakers in Oregon are hailed as persecuted. But they lost their business, are in HUGE DEBT, may lose their home, etc. But they didn't get beheaded or hung, so it can't be called persecution. Besides, those people went to get a cake, not a sermon, right? They just need to perform their job and shut up, eh?

Anyways, thanks for the post Blaine. May we all get fired for insubordination some day & suffer with Christ rather than compromise & buy into the spirit of the age. If someone wants to share Jesus like a fool, then those are the "fools" I want to be in a foxhole with. Not the wise in the ways of this world. Explain it however you want to, I would never do anything but defend a brother following his heart and preaching the Gospel. I'll be curious if it goes to court, exactly this all actually transpired in reality.

God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/10 12:59









 Re:

Quote:
by dolfan on 2016/4/10 11:54:41

If someone is stopped by an officer they are by definition under arrest. You cannot just leave at your own behest unless you want additional charges.

While under arrest, an officer starts asking you questions. Other than your identity and your license, registration and proof of insurance, such questions may amount to custodial interrogation.

Custodial interrogation entitles me to being warned about my rights to remain silent, and that anything I say may be used against me. Suppose you are stopped and the questions move into your belief and faith in Jesus. What is the right answer? Do I tell the officer I am a Christian in hopes of release? Do I need to produce "my papers" (show him my well worn bible or my YouVersion app) to demonstrate my bona fides? Am I risking treatment based on my responses to his inquiries? How will I know he is NOT basing his treatment of me on my willingness to listen or to identify as a Christian?

These are the first and fourth amendment concerns of anyone stopped by him, maybe oversimplified.

But, he has some, too. The point is made here that evangelizing is beyond the scope of his job. So are canned food drives and toys for tots at Christmas time, but the officers are often enlisted to participate. Officers are judged by their colleagues and supervisors on their willingness to jump in on these things. It is not enough to simply say, "evangelizing is not his job" when policing powers routinely engage in public relations that are unrelated to their purpose of imposing and enforcing laws. He is being singled out for the content of his communication.

His problem is that, in the particular context of police powers, his communication is --- legally speaking --- very likely a form of oppression of its own.

May I give an analogy outside of police powers? Teachers. (Yes, GND2). I do NOT want any teacher proselytizing my child at school, even if it is Christian evangelism. Why? Because, my child should be free to think and perform as a student free of any pressure to hold to any viewpoint. Kids DO view teacher assessments of them as pressure to conform, and the truth is teachers pressure students to conform to their peculiar community moral standards. For example, kids who wear certain cosmetics or clothing styles are treated with disrespect or disdain or open scolding for it by teachers. There is a pressure to conform to the teachers' own self formed norms for what a youngster ought to be and how they should act. Teachers whose students are poorer or whse families cannot afford the vehicles they themselves drive or who cannot vacation where the teachers do are tracked over into being afterthoughts in the classroom. POINT being that in the context of a power based relationship where the State agent of that power must do his or her job in a way that is compulsory (police compel you to stop so you do; laws compel you to go to school and follow their rules, so you go and do), it is NEVER a free will relationship and every person in such jobs owes a special duty (never itself obeyed, BTW, particularly in our police-worship and teacher-worship culture)) to remove himself or herself personally from the role and to simply do the job.

I do not trust any agent of the state with the precious jewel of God's Word and bringing it to bear in the lives of people, and especially not during their job duties.

The Indiana trooper is, I hope, truly sincere for Jesus. His firing is a favor to him by the Lord who loves him. He is now free to live out God's call to all of His children to evangelize. He should, I hope, seek employment outside of law enforcement or any other line of work where he is the agent of the strong arm of the State.



Excellent post! Best one I have read so far.

By definition the motorist is a captive audience and probably very nervous and even scared. What kind of Christian is this policeman? How could the motorist know? Could the motorist think that things will go worse for them if they don't answer favorably? This could border on coercion and manipulation and how could the policeman be satisfied with the motorists answers knowing the full force of the law is behind him? How would he know the motorist is answering truthfully?

I know policeman that go and visit a perp off-duty to follow up on them and share the gospel, but it is on their own time.

 2016/4/10 13:21









 Re:

I think the discussion on this thread points to one of the major differences between early and modern Christianity. For the first three hundred years, for the most part, Christians refused to be involved in positions whereby judicial rulings had to be made. Their loyalty and complete devotion to Jesus prohibited them from taking a whole range of positions including the military and so on. After Constantine, and the marriage so to speak, of state and church, everything changes, at least for the catholics, small c at that time.

So where does that leave us today? Should we take any job that prohibits us to share as we feel led of the Lord? As these restrictions increase and they are, how then shall we live. For much of society, Christianity has already been silenced. Now with social media, whatever you write or share may possibly come back and haunt you at least as far as employment goes. Decisions, decisions folks. The priorities that we set in life shapes us and our children. There will be more and more of a cost moving forward to be a Christian in the west. My sympathies are with the policeman.

If more people spoke about Jesus in public then perhaps the 92% number of professing Christians who have never saw a single person come to Jesus through their personal sharing would go down. The policeman may have lost his job but if one person is saved because of his sharing, then this will carry an eternal weight of glory........bro Frank

 2016/4/10 13:35
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Jeffmar,

A couple of points bear a little development.

1. A traffic stop is an arrest when the officer detains for the purpose of charging rather than mere investigation. It is nearly impossible for the average driver to know the difference. Courts don't even always know for sure and the rules are ones judges make. Try to leave after being detained and you'll find out what the officer's intent is. In Alabama, you will be charged with eluding and other charges....and they'll stick. A ticket is an arrest warrant, charging instrument (i.e., an indictment) and a recognizance bond. (Your signature on a ticket, for example, is your agreement to appear in court without need of a surety bond.) A traffic stop is a restraint on liberty by an agent of the State. Carving space out of that restraint to evangelize is a confusing bit of strategy to the driver. That is the crux of the constitutional issue and was why I posted as I did to someone's request for a legal perspective.

2. Men always ought to obey God rather than man. I do not doubt for one second that this trooper heard from the Lord and the counsel of Scripture to evangelize in traffic stops. He did exactly what he should have done. That does not mean he is legally right. It simply means he is right.

3. Personally, I do not care if the trooper violated the law or not. I am the last person in America who would equate obeying civil laws with Christian duty. It is an uneasy peace that we maintain when we obey the laws, and only for the purpose of keeping the State wolf at bay while we live forward in the manner and goals of the kingdom of God. Even our good citizenship is merely a cover; we are commanded not to love the order of this world. We serve it only insofar as it advances the gospel. If the trooper put himself on the cutting edge of evangelism and in doing so thumbed the eye of the State, good on him. I hope he and all ither believers will abandon the use of the word "persecution" as a complaint and take up the word "subversion" as a form of gratitude to God for making a show of Himself in the principalities and powers of this present age. I hope our trooper brother will celebrate his losses here as much as he can. God will keep him. Not as a good trooper, but as a faithful obedient Christian who said "the world is not mine".


_________________
Tim

 2016/4/10 16:58Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: dolfan

Quote:
by dolfan
The Indiana trooper is, I hope, truly sincere for Jesus. His firing is a favor to him by the Lord who loves him. He is now free to live out God's call to all of His children to evangelize. He should, I hope, seek employment outside of law enforcement or any other line of work where he is the agent of the strong arm of the State.


Tim,

Glad you are lawyer who posted!!! Thank you so much!

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2016/4/10 16:58Profile









 Re:

This is such a storm in a teacup...has anyone here actually read the full account of what he did, both in 2014 and this time around? It wasn't that he was preaching the gospel as some are trying to make out here, it was that he was "proselytizing". He asked if the lady attended a church then gave her information about his church...then shared her address with others from his church who then showed up on her doorstep to proselytize again.

That's what this is really about and why the lady was so offended, and he was told to not do it again, but did it anyway.

Cut and dried, nothing evil going on here, no persecution...just a zealous Christian who didn't want to follow the rules of his job and got fired in the process.

It's time to move on people :-)

 2016/4/10 17:38
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

Case 1:14-cv-01545-RLY-DML on September 23,2014, was the earlier case filed (upon complaint of a woman) against the trooper. This case was settled before reaching the trial proper, but he was warned to refrain from doing that again.

Obviously, he continued his brand of evangelism and after 2 years he was again faced with the same complaint filed by The American Civil Liberties Union in behalf of a female motorist..

I do not see a record that a trial proper occurred, I assume that he was summarily dismissed, (on what specific ground, I do not know) after two months of internal investigation.

I think we have to understand well the implications of the First and Fourth Amendments and other relevant laws, but I do not advise christians to dare lawyering for themselves.

http://www1.cbn.com/legal-implications-witnessing-work-1

Is this persecution? we will see, how this seemingly simple case of vexation develops. Well, a brother is a brother, I think no one wishes to see this brother impoverished because of his zeal.






 2016/4/10 18:49Profile









 Re:

Is it a violation of privacy to give someone's address out without permission from the subject? He may have broken the law and thus being punished for doing that and not so much sharing the gospel. I don't think you can use government equipment/property to find someone's address and then give it out to strangers.

 2016/4/10 19:56









 Re:

Imagine if you will a judge sentences a young man to death for murder. The judge carries out the sentence. He sets a sentencing date in which the young man will be executed for his crime. Then the judge speaks to the young man compassionately about his soul and his need to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. The judge says though the young man has been found guilty in the eyes of the state. In the eyes of God he can be found not guilty if only he will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Through Jesus he will receive forgiveness.

In the politically correct climate of our courts today this will never happen. But it actually happened over a hundred years ago. In a lecture by David Barton he shared accounts where judges would sentence murders to prison and execution. Then after the sentencing the judge would speak to the condemned criminal about his immortal soul. And then plead that he get a Bible and seek faith in Jesus Christ. This seem to be accepted practice over a 100 or 150 years ago in our judicial system. But this was a time when at least men could speak the name of Christ without fear of reproach.

I am 64 years old. I was educated in the public school system. I first heard the gospel story through my second grade teacher. Imagine my surprise when she spoke of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. And the Christmas story was not about Santa Claus and the reindeer. This was at a time when we prayed before lunch. This was in a time when Bible stories could be told in elementary school. The seeds of the gospel we're actually planted in my heart through my elementary school teachers. And this was in the public school system.

I remember when I first heard the Christmas carol God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen let nothing you dismay. Remember Christ Our Savior was born on Christmas Day. To save us all from Satan's power when we have gone astray. O Tidings of Comfort and Joy. Comfort and joy. I heard that lovely Christmas Carol through my fifth grade teacher. It did something to my heart.

When I was in the 12th grade my senior year of high school. I spoke with my history teacher after class. I also spoke with my speech teacher. The issue was my conduct at a speech tournament. Eventually I poured out my heart to them. Later my speech teacher called me that evening and invited me to come to her church. This was in a time when the name of Christ could be spoken in the public school system. It was later going to that church that the pastor led me in a commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ. All because a teacher took the time to invite me to church.

What I shared with you above cannot be done in the public school system today. If anything the movie God is Not Dead 2 gives us an illustration of what can happen in the classroom when a teacher speaks of Christ in the public school system. Or when a State Trooper shares his faith in Christ.

Brothers and sisters do you not see what is happening here. There was a time in this nation when the name of Jesus Christ could be spoken in the public Arena. You did not have to worry about lawsuits from the ACLU. But those times are now changing. And it will never be the way it was.

But if we can look up from our keyboards for a moment. Pleasr look at the bigger picture. The fact that this state trooper is being silenced is part of a bigger effort to silence the name of Jesus Christ in the public arena.

Does anybody other than Jeff and Frank not see what is going on here. There is an ongoing conspiracy, yes conspiracy, to silence the name of Jesus Christ in the public arena. No longer can one speak of the name of Jesus Christ without fear of retribution from the ACLU, the LBGT, or any other alphabet agency that wants to bring a lawsuit against Christians.

Forum I say gently I think some of you do not realize what is happening here. Brother Jeff and brother Frank see what is happening. But I think the great majority of you do not realize that the name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in the public Arena.

I say again the name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in the public arena in the United States of America.

I know some of you despise my post about the persecuted nations. But I am asking you to please wake up and see what is happening. If you will not take my word for it then go listen to the video by Paul Washer again. He said this is not silly talk. The name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in the public Arena. Do you not see that? Do you not see that?

Brothers and sisters you may blow me off. That is fine. But I am sounding a warning. What has happened with this officer. What has happened in other cases are not just random occurrences. But it is part of a larger pattern to silence the name of Jesus Christ. I ask again do you not see this?

My brothers and sisters if you do not wake up. When the net does close. You will weep and wail. You will ask why were we not warned?

Brothers and sisters right now there are businesses that are being sued because they will not offer services to same-sex couples because of their Christian convictions. Pastors will have to turn in their sermons for approval by governmental authorities if they preach out against the LBGT. Students are being dismissed from degree programs because they stand for the truth of Jesus Christ. Christian employees are being dismissed from their jobs because they speak of Christ.

All of this is part of a wider pattern to silence the name of Jesus Christ. Let me use the politically incorrect term of conspiracy.

For all I know you blow me off. I know some of you wish that I would not post on the issues of persecution. But I feel compelled to warn you that the name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in this nation.

We are under a mandate to preach the gospel. At least I comnend this trooper for preaching Jesus. Who knows the seeds that he may have planted. But Satan does not like the gospel going forth. And particularly Satan does not like souls being saved. Not when he can take them to hell.

I will always be thankful to God that that history teacher invited me to her church. But will teachers now have the courage to invite their students to church. Will they have the courage to speak of Jesus Christ.

Again the bigger picture is this is a wider pattern to silence the name of Jesus Christ. Forum your issue is not with me. Your issue is to see that the name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in the public Arena. I don't know how I can say it any plainer. This is part of a conspiracy to silence the name of Jesus Christ.

Despise me if you will. Send emails to Greg to get me off the Forum. But brothers and sisters I have to warn you persecution is here in America. And to speak the name of Jesus Christ will have repercussions perhaps even the giving of our lives.

Dear brothers and sisters I have warned you out of a Heart of love. Your blood is not on my hands. But I beg you and implore you please wake up. For the name of Jesus Christ is being silenced in this nation.

I would rather stand with God and be judged by this forum. Rather than stand with this forum and be judged by God.

Respectfully posted in love.

Blaine Scogin









 2016/4/10 19:57









 Re:

People go to prison for "conspiracy to commit murder" or "conspiracy to commit XYZ crimes". So conspiracies sometimes have meat on the bones. So we shouldn't throw out all the babies with all the bath water.

As far as the rest of your post Blaine: stop being ridiculous Kermit (the frog). Just get back in the nice warm silver hot tub on top of the stove. It's a party tub & everyone is in it. Anyone saying frogs die like that is just an illogical, unwise, foolish conspiracy frog. 😊

I would say something more serious, but it would just get explained away. I would ask, "well what about....XYZ...." But I have & people avoid harder questions altogether & go on about the narrative that this guy should be fired cause sharing Christ on the job is "UnAmerican". Well, so be it.

God Bless,
Jeff

 2016/4/10 21:44





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