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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Third temple - Is it the church?

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 Re: Church Fathers' view

Thank you all for the responses so far.
I would like to be like the Bereans and compare everything I read on this thread with the scriptures to see whether they are so. Sometimes it takes a longer time for me to answer....
I agree with julius, i see the scriptural proofs from the same angle.
RogerB I preciate your comment, I am not sure that I understand the last section right. It seems to tell me that when a coming deception is prophesied we should not strive to tell everyone the thruth, because we would somehow "go against God" by doing so. If you meant this I strongly disagree, if not please forgive me.
Thanks doc for the comprehensive collection of ideas on the topic, i will chew on these a little longer.
This is a kind and clear explanation brother elected and you brought up verses to support your point. I'd like to further discuss these in a later post. About the church fathers I found an article here: http://georgekouri.publishpath.com/the-early-church-fathers-and-the-last-days-of-the-jewish-age
This article examines the views of several church fathers about the future role of the jews, and its conclusion essentially conflicts your information.

Blessings,
Zsuzsanna

 2016/4/11 3:37
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1965


 Re: For Tozsu

I have opinions I want to share from my point of view which is basicaly the premill view of the scriptures and prophecy. To me eschatology is not at all unimportant and irrelevant because I see the eschatological events described in prophecy as the Lord and Christ putting the finishing touches on what they began at Christ's first advent and Calvary. It's hardly a fruitless endeavor in my opinion to try and determine how the last events of earth's present history will unfold before the second advent of Christ and the more we can determine beforehand can serve us in adequate foresight and preparation for the role the church is to play during this time. I will take your three points and give my take on them. It's not that hard to be polite and civil if folks want to so in that spirit I offer my comments.

/1.
Thessalonians 2:4
he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.
Here I think of a false teaching (or false teacher) trying to take over the church. (END)

Paul's reference in II Thess 2:4 is a quote taken directly from Daniel 11:36:

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god and shall speak monstrous things against the God of gods: and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.

Compared with II Thess 2:4:

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so tha he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The personage spoken of in Daniel 11:36 to the end of the chapter is describing this specific individiual who Paul refers to in II Thess 2:3-4. Almiost every time, over 30 instances, the personage is described by the use of personal pronouns (HE, HIM). Many believe that the description of this person actually begins in Daniel 11:21 but nonetheless Paul's reference in II Thess 2:4 is taken from Daniel 11:36 and the two passages bear striking similarity to each other. In Daniel this personage is seen as a deceitful, conquering and plundering individual whose heart is set against the holy covenant (Dan 11:28,32) and who in the end declares and exalts and magnifies himself above every god. I believe he will be the full and fleshly manifestation of the mystery of iniquity which through history has exalted and magnified itself abaove God or object of worship. It's the mystery of iniquity coming to a full and final manifestation in this personage just as Christ was the full and complete manifestation of the mystery of godliness. So it seems scripture portrays the person in II Thess 2:4 as much more than just a false teaching or teacher trying to take over the church. II Thess 2:4 is not the only place this person (HE, HIM) is spoken of. He's spoken of also in Revelation 13. Scripture never portrays this king who exalts himself above every god as doing so in Ezekiel's temple that you speak of.

/2.
In Acts 15 the apostles are discussing how the gentile believers need to be accepted in the church. And concerning the church James in Acts 15:15 refers to Amos 9:11,12
11. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12.That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Here we see the NT explanation of an OT prophecy where the restored tent of David is the church. (END)

But since it speaks of the church or believers in Jesus Christ it does not therefore for that reason cancel any outstanding promises and prophecies still unfulfilled regarding the nation of Israel. The Gospel revealed a mystery and after the events at the household of Cornelius the early church had this mystery as part and parcel of their apostiolic proclamation. To be specific the revealed mystery was the Gentiles are now also fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (Ephe 3:6). The early church nowehere said this fact of Gentile inclusion somehow meant the prophecies regarding Israel's future should be spiritualilzed or cancelled and nullified. Christ ascended from Israel and will return to Israel and sit on the throne of David and then the tabernacle of David, which includes Gentiles, will be fully restored.

/3.
John 2:19-21
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.
Here the Jews understood the temple as physical but Jesus meant his body that is also the church spiritually. (1 Corinthians 12:27)
There is an interesting article (text sermon) on Sermonindex by Charles Alexander talking about prophecies of the the third temple. http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22433
I would be interested to see how everyone views this topic, the verses and the article. (END)

The temple of God is indeed the church made up of each individual believer. That is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE from the belief that in the last days the Jewish people will rebuild a physical temple in a vain effort to once again please the God of their fathers. It's commonly asked how can a last days temple be physical when the temple of God is a spiritual temple made up of the church and its memebers. The two are separate issues not even related to one another. The man of sin and lawlessness who enters a temple and proclaims himself to be god is never portrayed as doing so in the temple Ezekiel speaks of. No one who believes a physical temple will be rebuilt denies that the church is the temple of God indwelt by His Spirit. The issue are spearate but often confused when a careful reading of the premill view could clear up the issue quickly. And there are millions and millions of premill believers who are not dispensational in their view. These two are also often confused meaning many think that if you are premill then you are automatically dispensational also with believing in a pre-tribulation rapture etc. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thank you for your thoughts. Reply any time you may feel inclined.

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2016/4/11 7:43Profile
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 Re: Thank you also Tozsu

Your irenic atttiude and what I see as the softness of your words is good and encouraging. I may be out of place here but recent discussions have shown that a few folks here are not polite or civil when a different view is presented regarding some of the subject matter you are discussing but that are a minority. I sense that your and my view may differ but you have every right to express your views and especially in the civil way you have. I will defend that right even if I disagree with the view. Meanwhile, who am I to venture and say what I just did but anyway, thank you bro. Now let me get back to my proper place here.


_________________
David Winter

 2016/4/11 8:03Profile









 Re:

I believe eschatology is important too, only insofar as some beliefs deny the gospel and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is very subtle, yet that is the end result of the doctrine.

Other beliefs have the Church consorting with the political systems of this world and leaning on the arm of the flesh to bring about God's "will" on earth.

Any theology that embraces these two things should be rejected.

 2016/4/11 9:51
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 Re: Well I'm clear

I believe neither nor does the premill view.


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David Winter

 2016/4/11 10:17Profile









 Re: answers (Re:for Tozsu)

Thanks, docs, here are some more answers to the three points:
1./
antichrists (plural) = people who deny Christ
antichrist (singular) = spirit of antichrist or one or more individuals controlled by this spirit.
1John 2:18, 1John 2:22, 1John 4:3, 2John 1:7
In Thessalonians 2:3 the greek word antropos is used which also can be seen generally as a type of man. Maybe a man that has this spirit behind him. One of such was described in Dan 11:36.
Since John speaks about antichrist as a spirit, it is easy to imagine that this spirit enters in the church which is also spiritual. That's what I meant by false teaching.

2./
" But since it speaks of the church or believers in Jesus Christ it does not therefore for that reason cancel any outstanding promises and prophecies still unfulfilled regarding the nation of Israel."
Outstanding promises?
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Corinthians 1:20
For more references on how the promises were fulfilled in Christ please see this exellent article by John Piper http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-christ-fulfilled-and-ended-the-old-testament-regime
" The early church nowehere said this fact of Gentile inclusion somehow meant the prophecies regarding Israel's future should be spiritualilzed or cancelled and nullified"
The tabernacle of David WAS restored for Israel (jews and the gentiles). That IS a fulfillment. Only the jews that opposed Jesus said that He came to cancel and nullify their law and the prophets but Jesus said that he came to FULFILL (spiritualize?) the law and the prophets. (Matthew 5:17) l believe that a jewish person can have all the promises fulfilled right now if he/she recognizes Jesus as Lord.

3./
So if the church is the third temple then all the prophecies about a third temple in the Bible refer to the church, then there are no prophecies for a physical third temple.

Zsuzsanna

 2016/4/14 4:28
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1965


 Re: Thank you Tozsu

Thsanks for your time and effort. I don't have the time to reply right now but I will try and get back to you pretty quick.

Blessings this day.


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David Winter

 2016/4/14 9:52Profile
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 Re:

To me it seems that if we said the third temple was the church, we make scripture that before seemed pretty clear very hard to understand. In my opinion, that is enough to cast that theory into pretty serious doubt. For example, Matthew 24:15 and its companion verses in Daniel. If I say that church is the third temple, then the passages make much less sense than they did before and I am left trying to figure out who is this prince that is to come, and where or what is the holy place in which he is going to stand. The church is not a physical building as such and is worldwide. The straight forward reading of the text now makes no sense and becomes hard to interpret. I am sure we could apply that same interpretation logic to other passages as well.

The presence of a temple does not imply that the worship that is going on there is necessarily what God would desire as worship to Him. Scripture is clear, I think, that all Jews and Gentiles alike who will be saved, will be saved by faith in Christ. So a third temple is simply one of the events that must happen. How that looks in the geopolitical climate is anyone's guess, but I can tell you that the fortunes of entire nations can change overnight and the climate of the world is prone to rapid change.


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Travis

 2016/4/15 11:22Profile
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 Re: Answer to point #1

/Thanks, docs, here are some more answers to the three points:
1./
antichrists (plural) = people who deny Christ
antichrist (singular) = spirit of antichrist or one or more individuals controlled by this spirit.
1John 2:18, 1John 2:22, 1John 4:3, 2John 1:7

In Thessalonians 2:3 the greek word antropos is used which also can be seen generally as a type of man. Maybe a man that has this spirit behind him. One of such was described in Dan 11:36.

Since John speaks about antichrist as a spirit, it is easy to imagine that this spirit enters in the church which is also spiritual. That's what I meant by false teaching. END)

John said the spirit of antichrist was now already in the world . This does not preclude the prophecies that portray a single personage being indwelled by this spirit at the end of the age. I don't believe Daniel did not describe just "such a person" in Daniel 11:36. It's no accident or coincidence Paul went to Daniel 11;36 to life his reference. This is the very same PERSON Paul took his reference from in II Thess 2:4. Compare Daniel 11:36-37, II Thess 2:4.

From Daniel 11:36 to the end othe chapter this person is described, the same person as II Thess 2:4, and the personal pronoun HE, Him is used over and over to describe him. Many commentators now believe this person actually begins to be described in Daniel 11:21. In Daniel 11:45 this person comes to his end between the seas and the glorious holy mountain which is Jersualem. How can false teaching in the church comes to its end between the seas and Jerusalem?

He's also known as,

- the little horn - Dan 7:8

- the horn that wages war against the saints and overcomes them - Dan 7:21

- a small horn which grows exceedingly great - Dan 8:9

- he one who removes the regular sacrifice - Dan 8:11

- the prince who is to come who performs the abomination of desolation - Dan 9:24-27; Matt 24:15

- a despicable person - Dan 11:21

- one who sets his heart against the holy covenant - Dan 11:28

- a willful king who does as he pleases - Dan 11:36

- a willful king who magnifies himself above every god - Dan 11:36

- the man of lawlessness - II Thess 2:3

- the son of destruction - II Thess 2:3

- the beast rising out of the sea - Revelation 13

- one to be slain by Christ at His coming - Isaiah 11:4 compared with II Thess 2:8

And again, Paul's reference in II Thess 2:4 is taken directly from the desciption of the willful king who exalts himself above all gods found in Daniel 11:36. It's not portrayed in Daniel 11:36 as being "such a person" found in II Thess 2:4. It is THE person Paul refers to. The full and complete manifestation of the mystery of iniquity (the spirit of antichrist) dwelling within a PERSON at the end of the age.

Thank the Lord for Rev 12:11!!!


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David Winter

 2016/4/16 9:02Profile









 Re:


Dear elected, I am sorry for waiting so long to answer your points. It took me some time to look into Ezekiel's prophecy and its commentaries etc.

"The prophecy of Ezekiel talks about a third temple that will be built in Jerusalem for the Jews not for the Church."
I agree except instead of "third temple" I would say "temple" because Ezekiel wrote this prophecy after the first temple was destroyed but before the second temple was built. This was a picture of a temple to be built in OT times since it contained animal sacrifices and in the NT those are useless. While the description of the temple is mostly physical especially towards the end there are symbolic elements such as the river flowing from the temple.
"We know from the NT that Christians whether Jews or Gentiles are the true spiritual temple of God. So God is not concerned about physical temples today but he is building his true and everlasting spiritual house."
I agree.
"Its pretty clear from these verses that all Israel will be saved when Christ comes back."
In my opinion these verses are talking about the first and not the second coming. The partial blinding of the Jews was mainly during Jesus' trial and death because these events needed to take place for the salvation of the Gentiles. There is a certain hardness in the Jewish people today towards Jesus but I am not sure this is what "partial blinding" refers to in the verse. I believe the partial blinding probably lasted till Pentecost because on that day 3000 were pricked in their heart after recognizing what they did to the Messiah.

I plan to address Daniel, the Antichrist, the tribulation and the definition of lsrael in an other post.

God bless you brother,
Zsuzsanna



 2016/4/16 10:37





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