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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Ron
wha is the difference between a function and an office?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/22 0:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jimmy

Quote:
My point is the fact that people were appointed and given an label to reflect this appointment.

My point is that people were publicly recognized for what they were doing and were NEVER given labels. ;-) (emphasising not shouting :-))


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 2:46Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
what is the difference between a function and an office?


the first is organic, the second is organisation.
The first is an outflow of life, the second is a tool for control.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 2:48Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
the first is organic, the second is organisation.



Quote:
The first is an outflow of life, the second is a tool for control



what does that mean in the simplest of terms, the above seems rather philosophical to me :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/5/22 6:42Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

My point is that people were publicly recognized for what they were doing and were NEVER given labels.



There is no evidence the seven were already doing what the apostles and rest of the church set them aside to do before the church set them apart to do it. They were without a doubt already doing ministry, and doing ministry beyond what they were appointed by the apostles to do. For example, Stephen and Phillip were evangelists apart from their appointment in the seven.

The same goes for what we see in 1 Tim 3. In 1 Tim 3, Paul told Timothy to first put elder/deacon candidates to the test before appointing them in those positions (1 Tim 3:10). Only after they have been tested is Timothy to "then let them serve as...", showing that if they failed this test then they could not serve in this position. Furthermore it is shown in 1 Tim 3:1 that these positions that one can aspire to become through Timothy's appointment of them. If they are aspiring to be something, then they are clearly not yet that which they aspire to be.

Scriptural evidence is clear that men were indeed given labels, otherwise they would not have been assigned names such as "overseer."

I believe this is perfectly Biblical, and have experienced it in practice. Prior to a month ago, I have served in my church, faithfully preaching inside and outside of church. I've preached to the congregation at large, in informal small gatherings, and one on one. I've also preached outside of the church in the streets and have been active in door knocking and homeless ministry. About 6 months ago, my pastor asked me if I would be interested in taking oversight of the singles/college ministry we have at our church (for it's pastor at the time was getting ready to leave for another ministry elsewhere). I prayed about it and told him I felt at peace about such. Shortly thereafter, the other pastor left for another church and about a month ago my pastor made me the Singles & College Pastor at our church.

Was I already functioning in the gifts and such prior to my formal appointment? Was I already even ministering to my peers at the college level? Yes. The only difference between now and then is that I have been charged by the other pastors to oversee this area of church life. I now have a responsibility to all those appointed to my care. Such appointment has only given me further opprotunity and responsibility that I did not have before. However, even should I have my position of overseer taken away from me one day for whatever reason, that will still not have any bearing on the gifts I was flowing in prior to my appointment and will still continue to flow in after.


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Jimmy H

 2005/5/22 9:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Life shows itself in growth. The NT appointment is simply the public recoginition of that life. The man was behaving like an 'elder' so they publicly acknowledged him as one. There were no public acknowledgements of apostles, evangelists, prophets or pastor/teachers. There is no evidence that they ever had any titles other than 'our beloved brother'. We confuse descriptions with titles.

The more modern approach is to fill in the names on an org chart. You create your project and org chart with names in some boxes but the letter TBA (to be advised) in the others. The man then has to fit the box. Making a man fit a box is organisatin. Making room for a man to be what God has made him is organic; ie a natural life process.

The reason you are having difficulty with my explanations is because it is a paradigm shift. You think I have a different kind of organisation but I don't. We become occupied with a sort of franchise system where every church has to have one of these and one of those...

I was with some good folks recently who have appointed elders in their church. They already have a pretty clear picture of what an elder is and of what a church is. They have an invisible career path for the church and for the elders. They know how this works; they have read the book! But they were so occupied with 'being elders' and 'being church' that it obscured the life that was growing in their midst. My counsel was 'just be'; stop trying 'to do' for and just 'be'. Some 'church plants' have a franchise blue-print and life sometimes struggles to keep up with the schedule. One phrase which I always think is ominous is 'we are setting in the elders'. It always makes me think of concrete. Concrete is not known for being a good environment for developing life. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 9:09Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

the first is organic, the second is organisation.
The first is an outflow of life, the second is a tool for control.



The second *can* be used as a tool for control, such is why the Scriptures exhort such people to not use their authority in a lording fashion. Rather, they are to only use their position as an opprotunity to serve others. If abused, it can lead to a controlling spirit. On the positive aspect, it can be used to shepherd.

All organisms have organization.


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Jimmy H

 2005/5/22 9:11Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
All organisms have organization.


No they don't. Organizations are created by organizers.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 9:27Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

God gave Adam and outward structure before he actually brought Adam to life to function in that structure.


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Jimmy H

 2005/5/24 9:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
God gave Adam and outward structure before he actually brought Adam to life to function in that structure.


Do you really think of the human body as an organisation? Eccl. 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. I have no problem with God's structures...


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/24 10:28Profile





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