| Poster | Thread | ZekeO
Member
Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: For what its worth...Amen | | Quote:
DezCall wrote:
I think looking to Jesus is our ministry. Bearing His image will be the result. People who try to "bear the image" sooner or later are more busy with the "bearing" part (and start looking at themselves) than the "Image" part (Jesus).
Good Point.
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Zeke Oosthuis
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|  2005/5/20 13:32 | Profile | InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
is the ministry 'looking to Jesus' or 'bearing the image'?
I agree with what DezCall wrote concerning your question and I will add this; I believe that Jesus spoke of this ministry we all share, as recorded in Luke 17;
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?(Luk 17:7-8)
The serving in the field is really secondary and flows out from the primary minstry which, I believe, is that of girding ourselves and serving the Master that He may eat and drink. This is the real heart of "beholding His face". We minister to Him and it is God's food and drink that we simply sit at His feet and behold His face in quiet time of prayer, study, and meditation.
Ron, I'm interested in hearing your comments on this subject.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| | 2005/5/20 14:01 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ron, I'm interested in hearing your comments on this subject.
I think ministry is the consequence of relationship. I think ministry 'to the Lord' is the consequence of relationship with the Lord, and ministry 'to the saints/world' is also the consequence of relationship with the Lord.
Real 'image bearing' is not a conscious thing so no-one is going to be sidetracked by trying to 'be' something. I was in Colossians for the last few days and came across this little gem...
Col. 1:7 even as ye learned from Epaphras our beloved fellow-bondman, who is a faithful minister of Christ for you, (Darby) ...seemed to me that the order was significant, first the 'beloved bond-slave' then the 'faithful minister'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/20 16:55 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: Who are called to be ministers? | | I assume that the question about qualifications refers to pastors.
It seems like they qualify for the position because of their education and experience as leaders - not necessarliy because of their relationship with God (that's hard to measure).
We can discuss the qualifications forever, but the reality is: What do we do if our pastor doesn't meet the standards? Do we go looking for a church whose pastor meets these qualifications? Wouldn't that be like a young woman looking for a man who fits the biblical description of a husband? She may end up single for a long time.
I think we sometimes must accept the situation God puts us in. Maybe these days God is doing what he did in the OT: he gave the Israelites the kind of leaders that they wanted - those who would "tickle their ears" and not speak of judgment for sin.
I say these words because I have endured a lot of turmoil at various times in my past - being burdened about unspiritual leaders. God taught me to rely on the Holy Spirit,faithfully serve God, and He would take care of the pastors.
Another thought:
Who really are called to minister? Is it not all who are called to Christ? And, can't they serve God anywhere - wherever GOD puts them - without any labels?
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Diane
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| | 2005/5/20 17:35 | Profile | ReceivedText
Member
Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA
| | Re: Bishops and deacons | | I hope we all agree that every saint of God should have a ministry according to their gift(s).
Having said that, I think this may be referring to church leadership. If that is the case, while there are many gifts, there are TWO main offices in the local church Biblically: bishop and deacon. Pastor as such is a gift, not an office. Paul lists qualifications for these two distinct offices (for men only of course ;-) )
Here's the Scripture:
1 Tim. 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus."
I think this is awesome that God would not leave it up to us to make these qualifications. It really takes all of the stress of explaining why we have our standards OFF of us. God is so good to do this for us.
I know that there will probably be some who disagree with my statement about men only. But egalitarians really have no defense in Scripture. Away with Jezebel! Remember that in order to have a Jezebel, you first must have an Ahab. I don't want to be an Ahab. How about you?
RT
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| | 2005/5/20 17:50 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
It seems like they qualify for the position because of their education and experience as leaders - not necessarliy because of their relationship with God (that's hard to measure).
This puts a finger on the spot. Is 'the ministry' in this thread a 'position' or a 'function'?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/21 2:41 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Pastor as such is a gift, not an office. Paul lists qualifications for these two distinct offices...
The Jocobeans were obsessed with the notion of 'office' and fed it into the KJV. I repeat what I have often said that the KJV is a 'hostile witness' when it comes to understanding the patterns of church life and function in 1st century.
Certainly 'pastoring' is a gift but from whom and to whom? The 'from' is easy; these are Christ's gifts but the 'to' is not so obvious. Is it to 'the Church' or to 'a church'? The other functions in Eph 4 which go along with 'shepherds' were all itinerant in the 1st Century.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/21 2:44 | Profile | KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
The Jocobeans were obsessed with the notion of 'office' and fed it into the KJV. I repeat what I have often said that the KJV is a 'hostile witness' when it comes to understanding the patterns of church life and function in 1st century.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the notion of an "office" so long as one understands an "office" to be appointed individuals who are given to a certain task. There can be no doubt in the NT that individuals where appointed to various "offices" in this sense. There is no evidence that men ever just assumed these offices on their own either (as often happens in non-denominational church plants).
In this sense, there are certain qualifications set aside for that office. 1 Tim 3 lists the qualifications for the "offices" of elder and deacon. However, these offices were not hierarchical and totalitarian in nature as they often have been and are often today. Rather, they worked in conjunction with the rest of the non-office ministry gifts of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor-teachers.
*later edit*
For example, the elders and deacons are charged with the responsibility of carrying out oversight (elders) and service (deacons) to the entire local body of believers. However, the other ministries such as prophet and pastor-teacher work within this sphere of oversight (if such exists) at the local level. Contrary to modern practice, these individuals don't have to first gain permission and the like to minister to a local congregation... they just do. The elders are simply responsible for overseeing the affairs of these men and women, and the deacons are to help these ministers do whatever is physically needed to fulfill their ministries (as in the case of Acts, to help the apostles with the widows).
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/5/21 15:34 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
I don't think there is anything wrong with the notion of an "office" so long as one understands an "office" to be appointed individuals who are given to a certain task. There can be no doubt in the NT that individuals where appointed to various "offices" in this sense. There is no evidence that men ever just assumed these offices on their own either (as often happens in non-denominational church plants).
This is a circular argument. First you assume that there are officers and then offices to which they are appointed. There are also some assumptions that deacons were charged with the responsibility of carrying out 'service' to the entire local body of believers. The 'seven' of Acts were appointed by the apostles in Jerusalem 'over this business' KJV Acts 6:3 but the word 'business' is necessity.
the 'office' of a deacon was not an 'office' waiting to be filled but men were appointed to do necessary work as appropriate. We know almost nothing about 'deacons' as referrenced in the pastoral epistles. The 'seven' were appointed for the highly specific role of ensuring that the Greek speaking widows received fair shares in the daily distirubution. The 'seven' were not appointed for the whole body to make adequate provision for the Greek speaking widows. This is borne out by the fact that each of the 'seven' have Greek names. They are Greek speaking members of the Greek speaking community who are given a specific role towards that community by the apostles.
The 'seven' did not have an office they had a function.
The word 'office' is never used in the Hebrew or Greek; it is the legacy of the Jacobeans and we have been stuck with it ever since. You might like to check on 50 KJV instances of 'office' none of which is in the original language.
Gen. 41:13; Ex. 1:16; 28:1,3-4,41; 29:1,9,44; 30:30; 31:10; 35:19; 39:41; 40:13,15; Lev. 7:35; 16:32; Num. 3:3-4,10; 4:16; 18:7; Deut. 10:6; 1Sam. 2:36; 1Chr. 6:10,32; 9:22,26,31; 23:28; 24:2-3; 2Chr. 7:6; 11:14; 23:18; 24:11; 31:15,18; Neh. 13:13-14; Psa. 109:8; Ezek. 44:13; Luke 1:8-9; Rom. 11:13; 12:4; 1Tim. 3:1,10,13; Heb. 7:5
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/5/21 17:26 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Ron, I think you missed my main point. My point is not the word "office." I don't know greek and am not ready to argue about matters of translation. My point is the fact that people were appointed and given an label to reflect this appointment.
Further more, these officially appointed individuals were assigned to carry out a certain task, or perform a certain function. Biblical offices are functional in nature. Should individuals fail to live up to the function of their office, 1 Tim 3 provides procedures for removing such people from such a position. The place Matthias took over from Judas who abandoned who post was to be a witness to the resurrection. The seven (though impossible to prove, but my opinion is they were deacons), likewise were assigned to a certain task to take care of waiting tables for the widows. The elders appointed in the various locals were given the charge to shepherd those placed in their care.
These were all appointed positions, or "offices."
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/5/21 19:52 | Profile |
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