Also regarding Lisa Miller. She had concerns about her daughter's safety and well-being. Particularly with the allegations of sexual abuse. However the federal judge seemed to disregard these concerns.Thus Lisa had no choice but to turn to Ken Miller and seek help in getting out of the country for the safety of her daughter.Brother I think you posted to what links will a mother go to protect her child. I believe to any lengths even if it means violating federal law. There was a time when the American justice system would have protected the child. There was a time when sanity ruled our court system. There was a time when a child would not have been raised by same-sex couple. But we are not living in those times now. And I do not believe that one will ever see any type of Justice from the American court system. Particularly in this situation that is under discussion.Respectfully posted. Simply my thoughts.Brother Blaine
Thank you all for thought provoking posts. We must not strain out gnats and swallow camels. When Lisa Miller came to Pastor Miller, he heard her testimony of becoming a born again Christian who was now forgiven of her sins but who had also turned away from her sins. This happened in 2009 long before she met Pastor Miller. When she came to him for help he discerned that she was a true believer. As has been stated here before, her concern was now for her daughter who might very well have been pulled into that perverse lifestyle by the other woman who was still a lesbian. Pastor Miller broke man's laws to obey God's laws. This has always been the path to persecution and men and women who belong to God. "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:10I'm reading the Metaxas biography oh Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, the struggles, the wrestling with God over these same issues of a government that had gone mad. In the end the true believer accepts the consequences of his or her actions for standing for truth. And ofttimes it is prison or death. The Christian who merely says we must obey the authorities ofttimes forfeits their duty to God and man. I am guilty of standing by when evil takes over. May God give us in the Western world the resolve of His own Son, who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross. Gratefully, Leslie
Hi Blaine,You didn't answer my question...sorry:-)My question was, how is this religious persecution when there are kidnapping laws on the books that have nothing to do with a persons religion? They don't say, "non-religious people can kidnap children but religious people cannot".You have talked about the wrongs of gay marriage and obviously this is not disputed, but my question is about the kidnapping laws. They are irreligious which would imply that the imprisonment of Ken Miller is not religious persecution.Lisa went into this marriage/civil union and agreed to "have a baby" with her "spouse". She did this knowing full well what the laws were. Just because she became a christian doesn't mean the laws no longer apply. I am talking about the kidnapping laws.Again, to be clear, I fully support Lisa and Ken in what they did, but that doesn't mean I agree with the assertion that his imprisonment is religious persecution. One other thing, unless I am mistaken didn't the Supreme Court specifically exclude clergy from religious persecution in their ruling? In other words clergy cannot be prosecuted for refusing to marry a same sex couple. I'm just pointing that out in response to one of your examples.
My sister I believe it was Bonhoeffer who said that silence in the face of evil is evil itself.The statesman Edmund Burke said in order for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing.Brother Blaine
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. We have the Holy Spirit and the Word to help us discern if it is God who is working in us or another spirit or our own flesh. When lives are at stake and emotions running high, it is much more difficult to discern His will and good pleasure. In the end, a man must be true to his conscience and God is faithful to show him his error, if any.James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. If a man violates his own conscious then he is like a wave tossed by the seas. I would rather a man obey his conscious and trust the Lord to show him if he was in error or not than to take a poll and do what the majority want. I am not saying there is no wisdom in the multitude of godly counselors, or the Word, I am saying that a man in the final analysis after seeking the Word and the Spirit and godly counselors, must make his decision and stand by it. Even godly counselors can be wrong, but God will be faithful to show this man the truth.
Matthew 5:10Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Brother the persecution against Ken Miller is the evil that is behind the federal laws. The brother took a stand for righteousness sake. That is doing the right thing. Consequently the enemy is using the federal system the persecute this brother.That is about as simple as I can put it.Regarding clergy. I believe they can be subject to prosecution if they do not perform same-sex marriage ceremonious. I am not aware of the Supreme Court extending protection to them. Though I could be wrong on this. But even if such protection does exist. Rest assured it will be repealed because of the evil of the times we are living in.My thoughts bro.Brother Blaine
The supreme court did not include specific wording but all the state courts who approved SSM did include such wording as Justice Roberts pointed out in his dissenting remarks stated: "Respect for sincere religious conviction has led voters and legislators in every State that has adopted same-sex marriage democratically to include accommodations for religious practice." Also, several decisions of the United States Supreme Court strongly suggest that the First Amendment guaranty of religious freedom permits clergy to perform or not perform marriages according to their religious beliefs.As to the original question I had, I apologize for being too dumb to understand what others are so clear about, but I still cannot bring myself to see how this imprisonment is specific religious persecution. Religious persecution by inference is persecution because of ones faith, is that correct? If that is the case, Ken Miller or anyone for that matter would have been convicted for kidnapping regardless of their religious convictions. When the judge handed down his statement he said as much. He wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with SSM, he was saying the law is the law...for everyone. I think Ken suffered for righteousness sake...which is just as bad, but not the specific argument that many make, which we call "religious persecution". Religious persecution is when Ken would not be allowed to even preach Christ or hold a christian meeting in his home or any other location.And speaking of holding christian meetings and being persecuted. Are you aware of the pastor in Arizona who was imprisoned last year for holding church meetings in his home? On the surface it looked like a clear cut case of religious persecution and I remember all the facebook posts about this. But when you dug a little deeper you found the other side of the story. The man lived in a suburban neighborhood and built a large separate building in his back yard for church meetings. This was not a residential building and was for the purpose of holding public meetings. As such it violated zoning ordinances. He didn't like this and did what he wanted to do anyway (probably thinking that he adhered to a higher law). The bottom line is that he lost...he was warned and told to stop and remove the building but he refused (or something like that). And in the end he elected to serve prison time rather than obey the zoning laws. I hope you can see my point here. There are so many cases like this where we think we know what is going on until we hear all sides of the story. I just think that we ought to be careful with calling everything religious persecution when it does not go the way that we christians think things should go. Perhaps differentiating between "suffering for righteousness sake" and "religious persecution" is splitting hairs, but it is important to know the difference when hearing about some of these so called hardship cases in the land of the free...where we practice religion free and without restrictions.
Mark-I understand what you are saying. If a non-Christian friend of Lisa's abetted her in the kidnapping because they felt sorrow for her plight and they were arrested we would not be calling it persecution.To me this falls more in line with civil disobedience and its consequences. Religious persecution (at least to me) is when a person is persecuted BECAUSE they are a Christian. If they start arresting pastors for refusing to perform SSM then that would be considered religious persecution because the law only affects Christians and other groups against SSM (likely Muslims, e.g.). Florists, etc., are a tougher case, at least to me. Selling someone flowers is not aiding an abetting a sinful marriage. It is just selling flowers. It is no different than a Christian cashier at the grocery store who sells a case of beer to Mr. Jones-- for the 5th time that week.
Brothers I feel like we are splitting hairs here. If I were to tell you Last Summer 9 saints were martyred in a church in South Carolina for their faith in Christ. You would tell me "no". They were killed because they were black. And the one who killed them was motivated by racial hatred.If I were to say that 7 or 8 students where martyrded in Rosebud Oregon because they were asked if they were a Christian. You would tell me "no" they were the victims of random violence by a crazed gunman.If I were to tell you that two or three Christiane work martyred because of their faith in Christ as a result of a jihadist attack in California. You would say "no". , they were simply the victims of random violence.If I were to say that Rachel Scott was martyred and Columbine when she was asked if she Believe In Christ. And then blown away when she said yes. You would tell me "no". She was simply the victim of school violence.I think we are trying very hard to convince ourselves that America will be spared from the onslaught of persecution. We are trying very hard to convince ourselves that persecution is not occurring in America. And coming up with all sorts of explanations to explain why persecution is not occurring in America.As usual. Simply my thoughts.Brother Blaine
So we say Ken Miller gets what he deserves. He violated federal law. La Dee Da. No persecution.So let us go to Starbucks and get a latte.It is an urban myth that persecution is going to come to America. So we can breathe easy now.By the way. Has anyone told Paul Washer that persecution is not going to come up on America.Blaine