Just another thought,
The lives of Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph are given to us to teach us what it means to want and hold onto God. God initiates the relationship. God demonstrates His love for those He calls. God speaks to those He calls. What is the result of this grace? It caused Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph to hold on.
The evidence of our faith must be that it causes us to hold on to Jesus. Unbelief and disobedience will break the hold that the Holy Spirit has on our lives. That is why Paul always uses the word [b]"IF"[/b] when teaching about salvation that is found in Christ Jesus.
Salvation is conditional for those who continue to backslide. Salvation is real for those who look to Him daily for His guidance. Today is the day of Salvation!
Lord teach us to number our days.
| 2005/5/20 13:14||Profile|
| Re: rest|
Thank you Lahry and Rookie,
This born again and again and again is a religious merry go round that plagues christianity. It's time to put it away and get right with Christ Jesus. Take His righteousness. It's the only one that holds up in God's court. Furthermore, I have an advocate with the Father Who pleads my case and makes intercession for me.
When one receives the gift of justification, the door is opened to Christ through faith into all grace. And this grace is most sufficient to save anyone in this world from spiritual death.
Paul goes on to teach that we are justified by His death, and we are saved by His life.
I think this thread has come up, not because salvation is an ongoing event, but entering into rest is.
I see a progression in many believers lives. Initially they come to Christ as children, broken and full of simple faith. Then, being sincerely eager to please their beloved savior they become energetic and dedicated to growing and overcoming. Often this worthy goal unwittingly turns their focus inwards, to a life of constant introspection and evaluation.
This juncture in the growing Christians' life can be daunting, because they have had their conscience awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet continue to struggle with stubborn evidence of the old nature still kicking around in their being. " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." Common modesty prevails and the poor Christian, looking for proof of salvation is prone to stumble and doubt that he ever was "crucified and ressurected in Christ."
The problem is that the poor Christian thought his spiritual bankruptcy was a one time situation, and that after salvation he should no longer be bankrupt. This is the fallacy...our own labors will never make us solvent before God. We feel we should be saving up for our heavenly retirement, but instead continue in our need to make withdrawals instead of depsoits. We knod our heads to the great doctrine of Justification by Faith but secretly we find it difficult to accept.
Yet, eventually, the mature Christian comes to grip with the fact that unless Jesus pays the debt it remains unpaid. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Maturity is not growing in the ability to pay but the ability to rest in the payment.
I like what one theologian has said..."There was a time when we were to perform a sacrifice. Now we are to proclaim a sacrifice!
In John 1:2 I have always found comfort in the way John embraces all levels of Christians with warm confidence in their salvation.
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong,and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
| 2005/5/20 13:56||Profile|
| Re: Salvation - one long time event?|
So much of what I have learned about salvation seems to be inconsistant - not only in my mind, but also in my own life experiences and observations. And that's why I wanted to explore the subject further.
Maturity is not growing in the ability to pay but the ability to rest in the payment.
Ah ha. The lights are coming on for me! I believe that salvation and entering his rest are the same thing. And maturity is learning to LIVE in it.
Now I know why some years ago, God gave me numerous dreams of "rest" experiences, and at the same time leading me to study Hebrews a book about Rest (all this during my illness with Chronic Fatigue.)- God was calling me into HIS REST - to genuine salvation. I never used the words simultaneously before now, but it seems to fit. It is a long story filled with various works of the Spirit - some moments of surrender, and ultimately a physical healing as well.
If I had my wish, I'd like to delete commonly used words and replace them with the actual meanings. For instance, "Born again" really means "born from above" - referring to the new life of the Spirit - the abundant life that Jesus promised. So how can one have become saved without any indication of the Spirit ruling (indwelling) their lives?
Maybe no terms adaquately define the regenerating work of the Spirit - it is altogether too marvelous - and beyond human comprehension.
When a child is born, they are as born as they are ever going to be. It's no different in the kingdom of God
Lahry, This is true, however, I think the alegory breaks down in the sense that one birth occurs in the natural realm, and the other in the spiritual realm. Jesus said, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sounds, but you cannot tell where it is coming from and where it is going. So is everyone born of the Spirit." Jn. 3:8 Perhaps the spiritual birthing process takes more time than a few minutes. (as Ravenhill says: more than four minutes to the altar. )Maybe it is a long journey .
So while we may be able to see a child be born with our natural eyes, we cannot use the same natural sense to define the beginning of a new spiritual birth.( Actually a child is every bit a living child before birth - before anyone even knew it existed.)
through which also ye are being saved ..1 Cor 15:2
Interesting...... I suppose: Just because one had a heart beat once in their past, that doesn't sustain their life right now. It has to be beating all the time - continually sustained by the sustainer of all life That applies to being alive physically and also spiritually.
In other words, if God called me into his kingdom (for real) then he will also sustain me (salvation) with the life of his Spirit as I remain in him. Right?
So the remainder of our lives is a process of putting to death the remnants of the sinful nature through Spirit conviction and empowerment - so that Christ may reign in me with HIS life.
Whew! - that may sounds more confusing than ever....
But it's starting to make sense to me.
Thank you for all your comments.
| 2005/5/20 19:53||Profile|
| Some of you scholars??|
Isn't salvation in the NT used with different tenses each standing for a little something different?
| 2005/5/20 19:56||Profile|
| Re: Does salvation have to be a one-time event?|
Why all the mishmash over this born again issue? We all should know that we are born again the one time not several times.
When we go about our lives and walk with Jesus, we our delivered daily or saved daily from things that would otherwise have us intangled in webs of deceipt.
But we must never mix this daily deliverances with our intial salvation.
Someone may ask, "what do you mean daily deliverance?"
Well Paul said that he died daily, that he put his body under. Jesus said in Matthew 6:34 "sufficient is the day of the evil thereof". We contend each and everyday of our lives with the lust of the flesh, the pride of life etc.. need I say more?
But I want you to understand something that I hope most of you do. And that is when we are born again, our Spirit man is made alive which was dead in trespasses and sins. But what is not saved is our soul. And this is something that needs to be hammered into our thinking that we must "not be conformed to this world but we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds, otherwise we will never know what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God".
Someone might say, "what do you mean our soul is not saved?" Well again, the atonement was made for the whole man, but that doesn't mean that the whole man is completely delivered (if it was then why bother with the transformation of the mind), that would be great if that were possible, but salvation is a process in the which that "he that endures to the end the same shall be saved". Yes we are born again, but does that born again experince end with the words, "ok I am saved now everything will be wonderful here on in". That is foolishness, it is so foolish that the New Testament is littered with warnings, admonishions and encouragements to continue on in fighting the good fight of faith, pressing on to that high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
The promise was that tho our sins be as scarlet they shall be as wool, this Christ with His blood made atonement for our sins. And by doing this, He caused us to be reconciled to God. But that is only the beginning. We are like new born children that need to be re-taught His ways, we look like Him but we don't act like him. And this is something that simply must change.
Ananias and Sapphirra, two Christians who died because they lied to the holy Ghost. A warning was sent out to the rest of the church that day, "this is something that shouldn't be taken lightly, we must be careful that we grieve not the holy Spirit" because, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Paul stated that we must not turn back to our old ways, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
The most precious in God's sight is our soul, this is what we offer up as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is our reasonable service. This is the death that is precious in God's eyes, this complete surrender of our soul to Him to work out all things for our good.
The Spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, why? The Spirit wants our souls attention and the flesh desires it's attention. There is a battle, we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers, thru this wrestling we allow the holy Spirit to tear down every high thing (in our thinking) that highly exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing that thing into captivity.
I remember the times when I sought God, that images of past events and things that I saw would appear whether it was in a movie or a song, or whatever it might be, I would pray against that thinking that is trying to insert it's ways above God's ways.
Lately the flesh is trying to get me to go and see that last movie of Starwars, I've seen them all, but I battle with the fact that If I did go and see it, I would open more doors for more movies, and I simply do not want to open that door. Again, another example of daily deliverances in the name of Jesus Christ our LORD.
| 2005/5/20 23:21|
Kansas City, Missouri
your initial post in the thread stated:
Salvation is not a one time event, we must continue on lest those things we have heard slip.
That endurence speaks of multiple salvations.
Your most recent post you wrote:
Why all the mishmash over this born again issue? We all should know that we are born again the one time not several times
This seems contradictory, please clarify.
| 2005/5/21 0:33||Profile|
| Re: lots of people "know" they are saved, but are not|
We all should know that we are born again the one time
It seems like the "should's and "aught to's" don't always jive with reality. Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord...." Jesus will respond, "Away from me, I never KNEW you."
Are these not the ones who are convinced that they have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ (expressed by saying "Lord" twice in a row) In other words MANY are very confident that they were born again, but they are not born from above. They have never received new life from ABOVE. Christ doesn't even know them as one of his.
Many are destined to hell right now, because their neatly packaged understanding of salvation is wrong.
So how do these people come to believe that they are saved? Someone must have told them.
I tremble when I think of the the countless spiritual leaders, and others who will have to give account some day for all those whom they told had eternal life based only on a one-time experience.
My passion for this topic has developed through my own life experiences (shared in other threads).I know personally how one can acquire very wrong thinking - through depending on the words of man.
| 2005/5/21 6:19||Profile|
| Re: lots of people "know" they are saved, but are not|
Thanks to all for the great comments. Oh how I do sense the Lord in the midst of all of this.
Jeff, thank you for all the supporting scriptures. Diane, I'm sure you are not alone, beloved. I walked in this mess for so many, many years. It was not until I began to understand the cross and the covenant of the blood that I began to see that I am eternally secure and rest in Christ Jesus.
Walking after the flesh, even knowing to do good and not doing it is sinful. But they are works of the flesh. God sees them as dead, IF we are crucified with Christ. You cannot be dead to sin and alive in it. Is your flesh dead to you at this time? Hopefully not. But it is to God. That is why Paul said in Ephesians that we are already seated with Christ. That is where the child of God is to God. We just have such a struggle letting God save us.
Diane, if there is no internal witness, if there is no sign of change in a persons life after whatever kind of experience you want to mention, that person is not saved. There will always be change if the Holy Spirit moves in. Walking after the flesh will quench His fire and work, but not extinguish it. Somebody once called Him affectionately "the hound of Heaven". As long as we live in this body, He will ever work on the heart of the believer to get them back on the narrow way.
You asked about those who "say" they are saved. They also "said" that they prophecied and cast out demons. It does not say that they actually did this, but said that they did. Big difference. Some said that Jesus preached in their towns and synagogues. Oh what a terrible self indictment. Did they not believe and repent and put their faith in Him to save them?
Yes, a thousand times yes, the churches are clogged with those who think they are saved yet are not. They are called tares. They are part of the Apostacy. The apostacy is here and now. Anyone who would deny that, I would have to wonder about their salvation.
There is no rest in religious works. Our "righteous deeds" are as filthy rags to God. Why? Because there is always something in it for us. Selfishness. It's very difficult to do something pure. Abraham was layed out when God cut covenant with him. Why? So it would be a pure covenant. Jesus died alone. Why? So it would be a pure covenant, free of the tainted fallen nature. Glory be to God, folks. This is good news. Rest in Jesus or rely on your works. Oh my Lord how lost I'd be every day if I had to be perfect. Do you drive? If so, how many times a day do you break the speed limit? Hmmmm? Come on now, be honest with yourself, not me.
Try as we might, we cannot save ourselves, deliver ourselves, heal ourselves, sanctify ourselves or walk in righteousness by ourselves. We must be covered by the blood of Jesus. We must rely and put all our eternal hope in Him, are we are eternally lost.
| 2005/5/21 7:31|
Santa Clara, CA
| Expressions of this life|
Being a liar and a fool, had expressed a 'no opinion' policy elsewhere that I can't live up to..
And all this is just drawing out much, think there is some real gut level honesty here in finding true meaning and that always draws like a magnet. Have always love the parable of the sower as it makes the most powerful understanding of what transpires. And taking another critical aspect and applying it to the mix...
Joh 12:24 [i] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.[/i]
Much by way of explanation and a great help I believe is drawn out from Major Ian Thomas (more here [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4640&forum=34#31792]Ian Thomas - "Not IT but HIM"[/url]) It is a constant emphasis of his.
So much in scripture in this whole regard is in [i]motion[/i]. The verbs describe it, death and life, planting, sowing and reaping, carrying and bearing, suffering and growing, lose your life gaining His... Or as Oswald Chambers was want to put it; "[i]Working out what He has worked in[/i]".
Of all the seed that Jesus stated was scattered only one took 'root' and the rest in their various outcomes is very much what has obviously gone on in the past and continues right up to our day.
[i]"And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the [b]thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.[/b][/i] Luk 2:34,35
[i]"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; [b]but God knoweth your hearts[/b]: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.[/i]" Luk 16:15
[i]"And they prayed, and said, Thou, [b]Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men[/b], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,"[/i] Act 1:24
[i]"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the [b]thoughts and intents of the heart[/b].
Neither is there [b]any creature that is not manifest in his sight[/b]: but [b]all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do[/b].[/i]" Heb 4:12,13
Ever noticed how well this syncs up with the parable of the sower?
"[i]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were [b]pricked in their heart[/b], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, [b]what shall we do?[/b][/i] Act 2:37
"[i]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, [b]they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them[/b][/i]. Act 5:32,33
"[i]Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, [b]they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."[/b][/i] Act 7:52-54
It is always a matter of the heart
[i]"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.[/i] Joh 6:54-57
"[i]It is the [b]spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing[/b]: the words that I speak unto you, [b]they are spirit, and they are life.[/b] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that [b]believed not[/b], and who should betray him.[/i]" Joh 6:63,64
Luk 8:15 [b] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and [u]good heart[/u], having heard the word, keep it, and [u]bring forth fruit with patience.[/u][/b]
Perhaps a whole bunch of preaching to the choir here, and who knows who may be peering in on these things, perhaps this all just to lay some groundwork...
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, [b]hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ[/b].
Eph 3:17 [b]That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, [u]being rooted and grounded[/u] in love,[/b]
| 2005/5/21 9:02||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: More expressions|
Lahry, how perfectly appropriate...
Somebody once called Him affectionately "the hound of Heaven".
Precisely where I was heading with all this and how to find the truth of that in actual experience with a backwards glance...
From a personal stand point it is quite amazing to me, the ways and the means by I find myself here at this particular point and time. This may prove to be difficult to express but trying to determine a 'setting point' is more in the analogy that I once heard Ol Hank Haannagraff make mention: That often times it is in that as a traveler you pass certain sign posts along the way to a destination, you find yourself leaving say California and ending in New York and don't recall seeing each states sign post in between, but you passed them.
Salvation is a beginning, certainly we know that much, a changed disposition. A question: Do you recall your natural birth? The day you came out of the womb? Just something to ponder in this whole wide realm. Maybe what I am trying to get at is there is a variance in experience.
Going back to the "Hound of Heaven", personally that has always stuck so forcefully. When did the hunt begin? Was it very early on, upon the musings of a child, wondering and reaching out to God beyond what I could even begin to understand?
Was it through the endless consecutive Sundays of sitting through church, the mind and heart being drawn to some other stirring within, musing on the cross, the world, life, death...
Or further down the line, into the era of prodigal living, 'nice guy rebellion' (outwardly) and the convictions of conscience both inwardly and from those divine appointments, crossing paths with Christians that I could not even bring my eye's to meet with theirs for shame.
Even somewhere in between. Can't find it now, but not to long back was cleaning up the garage and came across an old High School binder. It may have been from Psychology class, but remember flipping it open and reading some of my goals for life and was startled to read that I had put one as, "Getting to know God". I literally broke down and wept to see this in hindsight, what an incredible journey...
This is a rehashing of the testimony but there was a 'night' when it all broke loose, was sorely convicted and cried out to the Lord. But,... this had happened numerous times before and I still resisted not wanting to give up my sin. And each time I felt that incredible warmth come coursing through the veins... Oh, I hate almost to bring it up as some sort of 'proving ground', but it happened. There was [i]the[/i] night that I can look back on in the 'yes/no' way of 'coming to the Lord', wasn't preached to, didn't 'say' the sinners prayer, wasn't led into, none of these things. Only that "The Hound of Heaven" had finally, blessedly caught his prey.
But what of the next morning? Something happened and nothing changed dramatically, not for a very long time. Continued in doing many things wrong, many sinful activities and yet something was 'different', something in the core was changed or perhaps it was the beginning of dying...
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
What it seems for this particular fool in his stubborness or in the idea of [i]slow to hear[/i] was that everything went along a line of slow change, very little dramatic instantaneous deliverance, more of a mystery and always a backwards glance. Meeting the soon to be wife was a forcing of the issue and a speeding up of the process. She had a something about her that drew me to her and it was in the way of her disposition, it was Christ in her, in her manner, in her character and love. She had such a sense of knowing, that nothing seemed to bother her at all, it was commanding, it was peculiar, it was beautiful. Things began to drop off in a quicker pace in some regards. Swearing, practically overnight. Alchohol... just lost interest, it more ebbed away than anything and somewhere along the line had started weaning away from having the mind always 'buzzed' from it, the hangovers... But it was easy in comparisson to the harder issues of the weed and the speed. One that took the mighty battle that has been described before here, the other... Well it seems the Lord saw fit to break my arm (literally) and break that habit in short succession, which is quite uncanny because to hear Brian (Edit: 'Welch') Wheat's recent testimony (The guitar player from KORN) and his describing his own deliverance from the speed, he is pretty much right on the money, the withdrawals are practically indescribable on one's own. Had failed many a time to get off the stuff. Feeling apologetic to be rehashing and taking up all this space here and maybe am just trying to present just one picture of an ongoing progression.
There was the whole 'era' of being caught up in so much wrong theology, all the WOF, prosperity, [i]opposite[/i] and twisted truths of what this very life is. Much confusion and wrong anguish of a vexed spirit, something was truly amiss and I knew it deep down. Eventually a turning, an A.W. Tozer in a primary way, but yet amongst others and suddenly a stirring and grasping towards what the soul was crying for... Reality, truth, honesty.
And the glorious day! Oh yes indeed, let me not mince one jot or title here.
It is forever etched into my very core the day I came here. I knew that I knew that I [i]knew[/i] that what I had been searching for, that the spirit man was craving was right here and that before I had listened to a single message. It was distinct and profound and the tears are welling up even as I write...
What this mere site has done to this fool. Oh that I could express it adequately. It has changed my entire life from the core, it has ruined me forever in such an incredibly blessed way. It has caused the light to shine like never before, ruined all kinds of misconceptions of just who Jesus is, what He came to do and has raptured my heart. All of this has brought so much reality to bear, have and continue to be challenged and humiliated (It's a good thing, it really is), humbled, thankful, ever so thankful that I am but compelled to just make myself a fool in all these ramblings of expression.
And it is so much indebtedness not only to Greg but to all of you saints who have come here with like hearts searching for truth and reality in Christ Jesus.
This site has changed lives in such an incredible way, we have heard snippets here and there from the email encouragements that come through and even with our own eye's watched the profound change in many as they share and discuss and challenge each other to think, to consider, to ponder. We have even had some come and say that they felt they weren't even 'Born again' in their estimation when they listened to the likes of "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" or the "Revival Hymn" or "The Judgment Seat of Christ" just to mention a few. And of course that also kind of brings this back full circle to the 'when's and 'how's' and 'if's' of salvation.
The whole warning of;
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
And yet also the hope of:
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Maybe at bottom it is but this:
Col 4:2 [b]Continue[/b] in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
Col 1:23 If ye [b]continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away[/b] from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti 4:16 [b]Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.[/b]
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the [b]goodness and severity of God[/b]: on them which fell, [b]severity[/b]; but toward thee, [b]goodness[/b], if thou [b][u]continue[/u][/b] in his goodness: [i]otherwise[/i] thou also shalt be cut off.
Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love [b]continue[/b].
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, [u]but in the power of God[/u].
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
| 2005/5/21 10:51||Profile|