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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Jesus Son of God or Son of man or both? But not God. . .

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twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Jesus Son of God or Son of man or both? But not God. . .

Croref: Actually, Jesus did very clearly claim to be God while on the earth, as our brothers and sisters have quoted. One other reference I would ask you to consider. In Gen. 2, God said, "Let US make man in OUR image..." In John 1 we also read, "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." Jesus Himself was not only present, but was the agent of creation. We have three present at creation. God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. All three were and are God.


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Travis

 2016/2/29 21:34Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1154
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Jesus Son of God or Son of man or both? But not God. . .

Some things for consideration:

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

These verses would be very strange if "Jesus is God" the way most understand/believe- because it would in essence be saying; although God is God, God had to learn to be obedient to Himself by suffering,.. and then being perfected by suffering (apparently wasn't before) God then became the author of eternal salvation (again apparently wasn't before)...

That doesn't make sense to my mind, nor is it consistent with the whole counsel of the word of God.

Another interesting thing is how in most every epistle there is a clear distinction between God the Father and Jesus our Lord made by the apostles in their introductions... They don't call Jesus God but always refer to Him as Lord... I find this very interesting as it would have been prudent for them to just say it if that was their understanding, yet they did not.

Yet another is how Jesus Himself said, He didn't know the hour and day of His own return but that only God knows... If Jesus were "God" the way most seem to understand how could He not know?

I'm in no way denying the deity of Christ but I am submitting that there are several "gaps" in the understanding of these things...

I don't have all the answers yet but I do have lots of questions...




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Fletcher

 2016/2/29 23:22Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

Croref,
This is a continueunce,of what I see of The Father, God,and His only begotten Son,,Jesus

Prov.30:4,
"Who hath ascended up into heaven,or descended ? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists ? Who hath bound the waters in a garment ? Who hath established all the ends of the earth ? What is His Name,and what is His son's Name,if thou canst tell ?"

Rev.19:12
....";and His Name is called The Word of God."

His Name is everything that is in that Name,...The whole WORD of God,...all His righteous judgements in all matters....Truth,..

In loving thought,
elizabeth

 2016/3/1 0:08Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

another thought,...and there are many,...many.
Jesus is asking His disciples,..(learners),.."Who do men say that I,The Son of man am ?",.."and again asking....But who say ye that I am ? "

Mt.16:.."Simon Peter answered and said,Thou art The Christ,the Son of The Living God."

Vs.17,Blessed art thou,Simon Bar-jo'na; for flesh and blood hath not revealed
it unto thee,but my Father,who is in heaven.


Acts 4:26,
(Peter speaking)
"Unto you first God,having raised up His Son,Jesus,sent Him to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."


elizabeth

 2016/3/2 22:12Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 477


 Re: Jesus Son of God means 2nd person of the Godhead

Dear Croref:

The question of the identity of Jesus has been passed down to us from the apostles and settled by the early church fathers and the great ecumenical councils such as the first council of Nicea. That is why they developed the doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic union, which was a way to explain the truths of Scripture that are difficult for our simple minds to understand.

That being said, there are two levels to the question of the deity of Jesus Christ:

1) The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was both God (in essence) and with God (in persons, subsistences) at the same time. John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; 1 John 5:21 - "And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life everlasting."

2) The Bible clearly teaches that if we deny the identity of Jesus and deny that He is God, we will not be saved but will be damned. John 8:19, 24-27 - "They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also. [...] I told you that you would die in your sins, for UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM HE you will die in your sins." So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father."

So, I hope that you will see that Jesus indeed is God, which is why His sacrifice was able to satisfy the eternal damnation that we deserved. His sacrifice was of eternal value. I hope that you will see that who you think Jesus is also determines what you receive from Him. If you believe that He is God in human flesh, you will receive from Him an eternal salvation. Otherwise, you are still in your sins since His sacrifice was not sufficient.

May the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, enlighten your heart and mind.

In Christ Jesus,
Renoncer

 2016/3/3 8:01Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

As also JFW said:
"Some things for consideration"

Jas.1:13, "For God CANNOT be tempted with evil."

Lk.4:2, (Jesus),.."Being forty days tempted of the devil..

Heb.4:15,..(Jesus),.."In all points tempted like as we are."

Lk.1:35,..(The angel said unto Mary),..."The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee,and The Highest shall overshadow thee;therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

If the angel of the Lord,...and God,Himself said"This is my only begoten Son,",..and Jesus spoke over and over and said that He was His Father,God'Son, ..and all through-out the scriptures and The great men of God in the epistles proclaiming the same,..I ask you in a MOST kindness, How can we,without fear,.. proclaim any different ?

My thoughts in all loving kindness intended,

elizabeth

 2016/3/3 17:54Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1154
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Sister Elizabeth,

Yes dear sister there are many other verses, yay the whole of the book speaks of this truth.

So often we are taught a thing and just accept it based on a respect we have for the one who taught it, but it's rare that one sincerely searches out a thing as a berean. At best we go to the scriptures looking for verses that, when taken out of context, can "prove" the position we were taught and already believed. So many doctrines are formed in this way. Some of these become "golden calves" and when they are challenged by a differing view, walls go up, lines are drawn and "camps" are formed to protect these precious doctrines. But this is not the way of our Lord, nor of His Kingdom.
For this is the way of the world,....carnality. They are not mindful of the things of the spirit for their mind is upon things of the earth. It's evident in their activities and attitudes.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread?
Everything!
When one sets their idea of Him beyond their grasp then they have given themselves an excuse to live below the calling of the one whom calls them. This reason, above most others, is why so many live below the standard put forth in the scriptures like 1 John 2:6.... It's not that they don't choose to do it, they, because of their belief in this thing, don't believe they can!

So what does one do when their beliefs keep them from performing the commands of the one in whom they say they believe? Create doctrines that "justify" them in the position they occupy but apart from the clear commands of the scripture. Then having successfully done this, they engage in all sorts of carnal activities, supposing them to be righteous because they are doing them. If others don't agree and don't join in, they are attacked, criticized, marginalized and even vilified, much like the first century found the Sadducees and Pharisees going back and forth (carnally) supposing themselves to be engaged in the things of God all the while completely missing Him,.... even and especially when He was standing right in front of them as a man from Nazareth. You know in the end that's what really fueled the desire for His crucifixion,... that a man could withstand their traditions and embarrass them by exposing the pride of their hypocrisy.
I confess I was, like most, taught that Jesus is God and have said it more than once. But in His mercy, He kept drawing me back to the scriptures to search them to see if these things were true. I also admit it was a struggle for me you know,... to not "go along" with the prevailing doctrine was to risk being ostracized from my local body of believers but the love for the truth that He gave me would not let this issue go tho I, like Jonah, ran from it for a season. Ultimately it's in 1 John 4 that this was resolved for me and it is indeed fundamental to the faith,....

Again there remains many more questions and my Lord will show me these answers in His time and in His way. Although I am often dense,hardheaded
and very much stubborn, He is patient with me, gentle but persistent, kind but strict, loving but jealous. Above all He desires me to know Him and the one who sent Him, the only true and living God.

Blessings of peace and mercy be upon you dear sister as you walk with Him and be not ashamed of the gospel for it has the power to save all those who will believe+:)


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Fletcher

 2016/3/5 1:57Profile
Renoncer
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Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 477


 Re:

I find it interesting that some people are trying to disprove the deity of Jesus based on some verses that relate to His humanity. The verses that show His humanity do not discredit His deity, unless you do not understand the hypostatic union and the two natures of Christ. The funny thing is that Jesus's deity was not the issue in the 1st and 2nd centuries; in fact, some people had trouble with His humanity. They understood His claims to deity but had trouble reconciling those with His humanity because of their dualistic view of the world. The response from the apostles and church fathers was to proclaim the truth that though Jesus was truly God, He really did come in the flesh. God really did come in human flesh! The argument would make no sense if Jesus was not truly God; otherwise, the apostles would have simply said, "No, Jesus wasn't God; He was just a man." But that's not what they said.

In our post-modern world, people don't have trouble with Jesus's humanity anymore, but they do have trouble with His deity. But, their reasoning is not far from the reasoning of false teachers of the 1st and 2nd centuries: They can't conceive that God would humble Himself, take on human flesh with all its weaknesses, and suffer unto death at the cross. Gnostics had trouble with that in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries. Mohammad had trouble with that in the 7th century. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have had trouble with that since the 19th century.

What they have in common is that they are incapable of comprehending the mysteries of God, though these have been clearly revealed in His Word. Those who do not understand the Trinity will have trouble understanding Jesus's claims to deity since He was also fully human. Those who do not understand the hypostatic union will have trouble understanding the relation between the Father and the Son. John 1:1 creates cognitive dissonance in the simple mind... as they wonder, "How can the Son of God be both God and with God at the same time?", failing to distinguish between God's essence and God's susbistences.

Why is this a serious matter? Because Jesus said that those who deny His deity will go to hell (John 8:23-27). Because there are false teachers who turn people away from the true Savior and the true God (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). Because if you do not have the right Jesus, you are not reconciled to the Father (1 John 2:23).

May God bless you richly and reveal His Son to you, for your salvation and for the honor of His Name.

2 John 1:7-10 - "Because many deceivers went out into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh, this is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that we may not lose the things we worked out, but that we may receive a full reward. Everyone transgressing and NOT ABIDING IN THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST DOES NOT HAVE GOD. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bear this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, and do not speak a greeting to him."

Philippians 2:5-11 - "For think this within you, which mind was also in CHRIST JESUS, who SUBSISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, HAVING BECOME IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN and being found IN FASHION AS A MAN, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross. Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name, that at the name of Jesus "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth, and "every tongue should confess" that Jesus Christ is "Lord," to the glory of God the Father."

Revelation 22:13-20 - "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city. But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and EVERYONE LOVING A LIE, AND MAKING IT. I, JESUS, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely. For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book. And if ANYONE TAKES AWAY from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will TAKE AWAY HIS PART FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND OUT OF THE HOLY CITY, and of the things having been written in this Book. The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus!"

John 8:23-27 - "And He [JESUS] said to them, You are from below; I AM FROM ABOVE. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT I AM, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, The Beginning, what I also say to you. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you; but the One sending Me is true, and what I heard from Him, these things I say to the world. THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT HE SPOKE TO THEM OF THE FATHER."

Colossians 2:8-9 - "Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ. For IN HIM DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY."

John 14:8-10 - "And Philip said to Him, Lord, SHOW US THE FATHER, and it is enough for us. Jesus said to him, AM I SO LONG A TIME WITH YOU, AND YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? The one seeing Me has seen the Father! And how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The Words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does the works."

John 9:38 - "And he said, I BELIEVE, LORD! And he WORSHIPED HIM."

John 20:28-29 - "And Thomas answered and said to Him, MY LORD AND MY GOD! Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, YOU HAVE BELIEVED. Blessed are the ones not seeing, and believing."




 2016/3/5 13:25Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

KFW,Dear Brother,
I cannot begin to say,all the TRUTH' that you have so very well spoken here,in the plain and simple for our understanding.And how I appreciate it.

And YES I agree,we must,as the berean's,search the Scriptures,to see if it be so,what we are hearing,...because there are many voices in the world,...and there is One that says"Follow Me"....."For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God,(which is Word Spirit),.. they are the sons/children of God."

I agree too,there are many more questions,and The Lord is so gracious to help us,as we are hungry.He SO wants us to know Him.

Jesus was given the Scriptures without measure,unlike us,...we learn in part,..and we speak in part. (refering to: Jn.3:34,)"For He whom God hath sent,speaketh the Words of God;for God giveth not the Spirit (Which is Spirit/ Word,which is The Breath of God),..by measure unto Him."He knows the whole Name of God,...everything that is in that Name...He came and proclaimed God'Name,which we know, is the whole Word of God.

Blessings to you too,
elizabeth



 2016/3/5 20:15Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 965


 Re:

Renouncer,....dear one,...We are all so very dear to Jesus.
Loves man/us so very much,...we know that!

Came to bring us God'Word,He came to redeem us,...He was hated for that Word that He spoke...and though it was preplaned by God,the Father,man hated and killed Him for that Word. But praise God, now we now have an entrance into His Life through His precious blood.

When The Lord ,at the very first drawed me to Himself many years ago,by His mighty Grace, (The Devine enfluence upon my heart,...and it's reflection in the Life)He said/impressed upon my heart"Do not get any material/litature
of any kind,...."Don't get any material,it will only tend to confuse your mind Just get My Word and I will teach you."

So,That is what I did.I got The Word,and depended on the Lord to teach me.He,we know is the Great Professer/Teacher.Else how will we have a plumb line?And ,also,How will we follow Him,...not a tradition,or other?

So as I hungered after Him,He taught me ,...and will continue to teach us.

And for this,I am not worthy,but I am SO grateful.

Out of His mouth flowed/flows,..THE WAY,...THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.

Does it seem to you,that many people want/believe in a Jesus,without The Word? He said it was not His Words,but The Fathers.

If we have /believe in a Jesus,without the Words that came out of His mouth,then I believe we have 'another jesus" ...

The LORD God,created the first man,Adam,out of the dust of the earth,
Jesus,His only begotten Son,He called into being,and was born from Mary's womb.

We know we have an earthly father,but when we are born again of the Spirit of God,...'Jn.1:12,"But as many as receive Him to them gave he power to become the children/sons of God." (to become the children of The Word/Spirit...God)



Hope I have not got too carried away,and said too much.
Lovingly,
elizabeth

 2016/3/5 21:32Profile





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