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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1303
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Solomon101,

While I've never been a big drinker of alcohol, (but I do enjoy a drink from time to time) I do tend to agree with the general thrust of your response. It's a sad thing to see Saints yoking one another with cultural criticisms. Also its well known our dear brother Spurgeon liked to smoke... allot!
Wouldn't it be interesting to have him a present day participant here on SI and get attacked for his cigars... Now that would be a rich discussion ha!


Brother Tim, RTR!


_________________
Fletcher

 2016/2/11 15:54Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Peyton Manning is not a Christian. He is a Mormon. That is an unbiblical heretical cult. That makes the whole discussion "off".


Was not aware of that. Yeah, even if you don't consider the public beer drinking it's "off" if he's a Mormon to begin with.

Towards Spurgeon, he eventually quit smoking cigars because the Holy Spirit convicted him of causing others to stumble.

Again, in certain countries drinking and smoking may be the norm even for Christians as long as they don't get drunk or high. But here it's obviously different and that's why Christians cannot smoke and drink and be involved in ministry in many solid Christian circles, and with good reason.

There is a big push these days within much of Christendom to stifle and eliminate conviction of sin and to compromise and lower the standard. But we mustn't fall for the traps of the enemy to our own peril. We must take a firm stand and not compromise or stifle the convictions of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Oracio

 2016/2/11 17:17Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5405
NC, USA

 Re:

Where in the world did you get the idea that he's a Mormon?

I will need some proof and not gossip about that.


_________________
Todd

 2016/2/11 17:31Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Also, I wouldn't use Luther as a good example of godly character. Good doctrine, yes, godly character, no.

Towards Calvin, he too was a fallible man.

Our standard must be Christ and His Word. But I can hear the objection, "Didn't Jesus turn the water into wine at the wedding in John 2?" Yes, but a careful study shows that in those days wine was not nearly as fermented or strong as is the case today with beer and wine. In those days it was recommended that people drink wine instead of water due to the amount of contamination in their water.


_________________
Oracio

 2016/2/11 17:45Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Warning. Off topic.

I shared this on a forum I have been part of since 2004. This was posted by me in 2011 after my "conversion" to teetotalism. It explains for me why.

"First, let me agree with you 100%, TW. I don't like it at all. As you all may or may not know, the convenience store business my family is in has, since September, 2010, sold beer and wine. I hate it. I despise it. I'm not alone in it, and my say-so is the least of "say-sos" and the minority say-so. In fact, every one of us involved in the business voted against legalizing sales in our town, but it passed and we determined as a matter of business necessity that we had no choice but to sell them. We are now the #6 retailer of beer in north Alabama in less than 1 year. We sell more than Wal-Mart. And, do you know who is most responsible for the operational side of that in the family business?

You guessed it.

I see it, handle it, smell it, sell it, tape 'em up, put 'em up, stack 'em, stock 'em, and pretty much handle the inventory control of all the beer and wine coolers that come into the store. And, let me reiterate that it is a bunch.

There was a time when I would carry the argument here about the lack of a Biblical abstinence-only view of alcohol consumption. I'm not carrying that argument anymore because I'm so completely and utterly sick of booze. I detest it. Not only do I absolutely not so much as taste it now and then, I am done...with....it. That has been a blessing, Here's why.

I've always thought it was a poor excuse for argument that we could look to the abuses of alcohol and the fallout of alcoholism as a point in favor of an abstinence only view of alcohol, biblically speaking. I'm still of that mind -- that we can't rely on THAT truth to constitute a biblical truth that simply is not expressed in the bible. HOWEVER, there are many particular forms of evil that have no exact example in the Bible. For instance, there is no instance of an HIV positive man raping a six month old child as I read about this weekend, but the bible thoroughly and pointedly makes that an abomination (adultery, harming a child, hatred-as-murder, perversion, etc.).

Here's why I bring that instance up: I have learned in the last 9 months that more people drink way more than I ever knew. I'm 44 years old now. My hair is graying fast, lines are taking over my forehead and eyes. I grew up in an alcohol-ridden home. I should have known better but didn't. I had sequestered myself much more than I ever knew, as an adult, away from the booze culture. My dalliances in it were too brief to open my eyes to what is actually happening. Now, they're wide open. Alcohol is, just like the illegal drugs that infect our society, a beast and a monster that devours people and spits them out. They are enamored with the thing that destroys them. As I read the Bible, and as I view now through lenses of experience that I've never had, I can say without equivocation that alcohol -- like all other substances people use illicitly, whether legal or not -- is an idol of the people. For that, the Bible is crystal clear that there shall be NO other gods before Him. If that is not an abstinence position, I do not know what is.

If a Christian can manage to drink alcohol without the slightest encroachment of idolatry into the heart while committing or defending the act, then praise God for the grace of God that fills that person's heart. I haven't seen that, and I cannot do it myself, even with no more of it than I would allow myself to consume. As I reflect on it, giving myself the greatest benefit of the doubt in the matter in the past, the most generous view of my actions would amount (in my view) to failing to abstain from drinking blood or from meats sacrificed to idols in a culture where failing to abstain would harm the witness of Christ and reduce Him in the eyes of the lost or of the weaker believer to an object no different from an idol.

So, with all that in mind, and agreeing with you, TW 100% (and, by the way, great to hear from you again!!), I am just laying it out there that I have a changed heart and mind and renewed and improved understanding of the Scriptures on this issue."


_________________
Tim

 2016/2/11 17:57Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Paul never in any way advised them to stop drinking wine! He told them to do it at home if they were going to drink these larger quantities. Let that sink in. Paul never told them to quit drinking alcohol!


So let me get this straight. According to that logic, it was okay with Paul if the Corinthians drank “larger quantities” of wine at home and get drunk? That would be a clear contradiction of Eph. 5:18, “Do NOT be drunk with wine…”


_________________
Oracio

 2016/2/11 18:00Profile









 Re:

Luther? Good doctrine???????????????????????

Luther's venomous doctrinal position towards the Jewish people was used by Hitler to great advantage. More wicked religious doctrine than his would be difficult to imagine.

 2016/2/11 18:05
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Luther? Good doctrine???????????????????????

Luther's venomous doctrinal position towards the Jewish people was used by Hitler to great advantage. More wicked religious doctrine than his would be difficult to imagine.



I was not referring to that aspect. I was referring to the good aspects, such as rejecting and opposing Romanism and declaring salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and standing on Scripture alone instead of the traditions of Rome.

His being anti-Semitic is part of what I was referring to as "ungodly character".


_________________
Oracio

 2016/2/11 18:10Profile









 Re:

okay , got it. thanks for the clarification

 2016/2/11 18:12
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1303
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Oracio,

I'm copy/pasting this from Spurgeon.org

Note: Because we get so many requests for information about Mr. Spurgeon's use of cigars, we provide the following vignettes from some early Spurgeon biographies. It is important to note that Mr. Spurgeon's love for cigars was not an addiction, and he deliberately kept it from becoming an addiction, as is clearly shown in the anecdotes related by William Williams (below).
Furthermore, we fully agree with Mr. Spurgeon that smoking cigars per se is not a sinful activity. Cigars, unlike cigarettes, are properly smoked without inhaling, minimizing the risk of lung damage. Nor does cigar smoking normally involve the kind of addictive behavior associated with cigarette use. By all accounts, Mr. Spurgeon's smoking was occasional, and never much more than a cigar a day or so—which, again, suggests that this was no addiction with him.
There are no doubt health risks associated with cigars, but this is also true of cream cheese, or coffee, or almost anything when consumed without moderation. There is no real evidence that cigars in any way hastened Mr. Spurgeon's death.
Mr. Spurgeon's smoking was a historical fact, and the cause of truth cannot be served by denying it or inventing myths that suggest he finally "repented" of this activity. The fact is that he did not regard smoking cigars as a sinful activity, and he evidently held that opinion until the end of his life.


_________________
Fletcher

 2016/2/11 18:33Profile





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