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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Those who teach sex=marriage would have to then say that any adultery dissolves the previous union and now obligates them to stick to their new union, and that certainly would be a hard thing to prove with scripture



Sex apart from marriage is not 'marriage' it is whoredom. The word used in the OT is 'whore.' That is harsh language in our times, but that is KJV language. It is taking that which belongs to the one and giving it to another. If the whoredom was not disclosed before the marriage bed the woman was to be taken out and stoned to death.

[i]But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.[/i] (Deuteronomy 22)

Notice the phrase- "so shalt thou put evil away from among you." What was the evil? Was it merely whoredom? No, it was her attempt to marry under false pretenses. She took that which belonged to the one and gave it to anouther- and now she pretends to be one thing when she really is another.

So as we attempt to get back to God's original intention we have to do what Jesus did and go back to the beginning. Go back to Adam and Eve. We can't reach back to some point and say "this was God's plan." Surely it was never God's plan that men and women divorce and He hates divorce (putting away). Are we to assume God likes fornication? Hebrews 13:4- whoremongers AND adulters God will judge.

How can we have sound marriages with all the whormongering that goes on in society? Much of which is never disclosed until after the wedding night. God's plan is for one woman and one man forever. To live a life of whoredom and whoremongering and then "find the right one" and decide to leave and cleave is to tempt God. To think that a person can live in whoredoms and then marry and keep fooling around and force the spouse to just keep taking it is nonsense.

Let it be known that if you cheat on your spouse you are on dangerous ground. If you marry under false pretenses you are on dangerous ground. If you commit adultery against your spouse and join Christ to an harlot (male or female) a divorce may very well be the merciful thing you get. As Ravenhill said in his interview "God is going to destroy that man!" Him shall GOD destroy. If you get caught you may end up in a grave anyhow. Listen to Proverbs:

[i]30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;
31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.
32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
34 For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.[/i] (Proverbs 6)

These are sound scriptural facts that ought to make one tremble and fear. Imagine being on the receiving end of the wrath of BOTH God and man?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/16 8:55Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 What makes someone married?

I was just wondering: What actually makes a couple married? Is it the ceremony? Is it when a religious leader declares so, or when the gov't gives a liscence. How does GOD join two and make them one?

If a common-law couple is committed to each other is that not actually marriage? If they should split, does that not have exactly the same disastrous affect as when a legally married couple separates - esp if they have children.

If we have marriage lisences, why doesn't our society have penalties for violation, like for any other violation of a lisence, or doing something without a liscence (permission)?

Re multiple marriage:
Note Nathan's rebuke to David. He speaks for God, saying, "I gave you your masters wives into your arms.... If all this had been too little, I would have given you more.... You took the wife of Uriah...." 2 Sam. 12:8
More? Is this saying that David could have had more wives if he had ASKED God??
It seemed like David's sin was coveting, stealing, adultery = taking what belonged to SOMEONE ELSE instead of asking God.

It seems like there is an ownership issue here. Makes me think, why don't Christians get more upset about adultery which is destroying so many people. I see a far louder outcry against same-sex marriage. However, I think that adultery is far more common and damaging than we'd like to think?


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Diane

 2005/5/16 14:34Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: What makes someone married?

Quote:
However, I think that adultery is far more common and damaging than we'd like to think?



That would be because human beings are notorious for slamming sins that they have no inclination to. This is true across the board. Practicing homosexuals don't generally slam homosexuality, they slam something else. Adulterers don't generally slam adultery, they slam something else, like homosexuality. Its the oldest mindset in the book to slam sins that we are not guilty of or have been delivered out of.

Yet, probably the two most frequently committed sins in America is covetousness and gluttony. In the end it is really a diversion. Divert the attention to things that occupy our minds and keep our conscience in check. The problem with this is you generally end up nailing someone who is really trying to serve God. We need to become introspective. We need to get the beam out of our own eyes so we can see clearly to do the delicate and painful task of eye surgery.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/16 15:21Profile
inotof
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Joined: 2005/1/7
Posts: 267
Morehead, KY

 Re: What makes someone married?

I agree on your thoughts on smae sex marriage and adultry. We have groups that fight against it, and we call it preserving the sanctity of marriage but realy what are we doing to prevent unfaithfulness?
The "what makes a marriage a marriage? it is the covenant. that is where our ceremonies date from. there is a verbal commitment to each other in the sight of God and witttness and then there is a consumation of the vow that you as a husband leave and cleave. (at least from what i know)
as far as the david issue goes, that is actuall what im tying to figure out with this post.


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David

 2005/5/16 15:24Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The "what makes a marriage a marriage? it is the covenant. that is where our ceremonies date from. there is a verbal commitment to each other in the sight of God and witttness and then there is a consumation of the vow that you as a husband leave and cleave. (at least from what i know)



There is a mouthful here, but by and large I agree. As we go back to Adam and Eve we see the beautiful design of God for man. In the beginning He (God) called [i]their[/i] name Adam (man). This is unity. This is one flesh. How long would this one man and one woman plural unity last as a model? Not long. In Genesis 4 we read... [i]and Lamech took two wives...[/i]. Before Adam had breathed his last he lived to witness the beginning departure of God's original plan for marriage which had began with him. God always wanted "one woman kind of men" and "one man kind of women". Not wandering eyes- not coveting each others spouses. Not polygamy and not divorce.

God hates putting away. This is the crux of the pain. The emphasis is generally placed on the multiple marriages, but what God hates primarily is the putting away. The breaking apart. Men could have had multiple wives and not have commited what God 'hated' had He not dealt harshly with the wife of his youth- the one with whom God was the witness of the covenant. This is where we must focus. We must understand that the treatment of our spouses in the eyes of God is critical- failing to understing this will cause you many of unanswered prayer.

As terrible as pologamy is it is not what God said he hated. It was the putting away that He hated. Dwell on that for a while. It is a sobering thought. Think of how horrible it is that two would give each other to each other and then one of them violate that union in adultery. Think of the hurt and the pain. It would take a miracle of God to keep the romantic love alive after such a transgression. What could be more violating than to violate a person like this. Yet, if God hates 'putting away' what does He think of adulterers and whoremongers? Hebrews 13: says He WILL judge them. Not maybe, not perchance, and not if He feels like it. Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God WILL judge. Mark it down and watch their lives. They will come to calamity- they will know that they have transgressed.

God Bless,

-Robert





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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/16 15:43Profile
inotof
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Joined: 2005/1/7
Posts: 267
Morehead, KY

 Re:

wow. that is a great post and makes alot of sense. so then poloyogmy is yet another extention of our sinfulness that God was patient with those before us in, he tolerated it and we confused his tolerance of it was with his approval? wow.
i wonder, just out of curiousity, how many really hard messages have we heard in recent years on the subject of infidelity in marriage? I can't really think of any that targeted it, even in marriage conferences.
powerful words from you post Robert, my friend. my God keep that which we have commited to him and may we not snatch it from his hands and ruin this lovely thing called marriage.


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David

 2005/5/16 17:21Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: polygamy

Quote:
As terrible as pologamy is it is not what God said he hated.



It seems like you are saying that men who practised polygamy, were held accountable for how they treated the wives they had.

In some cultures, isn't polygamy a way of providing social security for women? That seems like a good thing.

In the Mormon community "Bountiful" (In western Canada) the practise of polygamy involves horrible abuse - shaming, sexual abuse, control, male domination.... They practised polygamy for religious reasons - the more wives a man had, the higher status in heaven (at the expense of the women and girls). That is very evil.


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Diane

 2005/5/16 20:45Profile









 Re: Help! I've got 10 wives

Just want to mention, Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Rachel - all these marriage unions were a picture, in one way or another, of the heavenly Bridegroom and the Bride. Human marriage is modeled on something which is embedded in God's heart and nature. That's one of the reasons Satan struck at man through the relationship of Adam and Eve.

Although there is great information in the Old Testament, the real example of marriage love is Christ's love for the Church - (saved) individuals. This is also why we should expect the Lord to restore those who have been harmed by unhealthy realtionships prior to their relationship with Him - but not to do with fault or blame; Jesus's death dealt with it all. Thus, the church could be better equipped in this area of ministry, perhaps? especially with an attitude of patience and love to those who need [i]time[/i] to heal.

Being 'joint-heirs' and presenting oneself as a 'living sacrifice' [i]to God[/i] are part of the normal Christian life. I am uneasy about the suggestion a wife should be [i]a sacrifice to her husband[/i], even though scripture says the husband should be like Christ's sacrifice in his love towards his wife. [i]That[/i] is the order.

On the matter of wives obeying husbands (in Christian marriages) and bearing [i]their husband's burdens[/i], this suggestion may need to be balanced by the verses at the end of Ephesians 5, first. I hope this does not sound harsh.

 2005/5/16 21:50









 Re: Marriage

After reading the different opinions raised on this particular topic, I don't think anyone knows what Marriage really is.

We have ideas, but no answer.

I think that if we really knew what marriage was all about, and what it stands for and what God has designed it to be, we would see less break-ups, less divorcing and the like.

I am not saying I have the answer, but I think that it must be tied into with this concept:

"To love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul mind and your strength."

A man must fully put himself into his wife and a woman must fully put herself into her husband, thus becoming one flesh, sexually, mentally, spiritually.

Because it says, "You men, love your wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it."

Paul is liken men to Christ and the Wife to the Church.

I think it's our perception of how we 'think' Christ is treating us is how we treat our wives.

Men ought to have the title 'lord', but men today don't know how to handle it, instead of using as playing out an honourable role, they use to lam base the wife.

Wive are no different, instead of representing the church, they withhold their bodies from thier 'lord' as something sacred and shouldn't be touched. They build shrines of pride around themselves that even disgusts the Angels in heaven.

When we came to the LORD Jesus, we gave up our Body to Him, as He gave up His body for us. "We are not our own...."

The same thing in marriage, A woman loses her identity as who she was before and takes on the identity of her husband. Men give up their rights as being single and takes on the responsiblity of providing for his own.

What has happened to the Church in Western cultures is that we have adopted the ways of the world.

We need to be re taught the scriptures in this regards. I think we all need to stop soul winning and start strengthing the body first then once that is done, then go out and find those who are in the highways and biways. When they start coming into the church, they will come into a love feast of holy people who love one another, love thier mates, love their nieghbour. It will be like coming into a nursery where your loved and cared for and nothing will harm you.

That's what I think.

Karl

That kind of love is just saturated with it.

 2005/5/16 22:02
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: marriage

Malachi 2:13 (King James Version)

[i]13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand[/i]

God was saying, “I no longer accept your offering or your worship. I won’t receive anything you bring.”

And why was it the Lord was not accepting these men’s ministry any longer?

Malachi 2:14-15 (King James Version)

[i]14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. [/i]
[i]15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.[/i]

Without fear of contradiction, it all had to do with their marriages!!

Some of us have been exposed to a Gospel that says a man can abandon his wife and kids and still make heaven his eternal home. Some of us have been exposed to a Gospel that says a woman can abandon her husband and kids and still make heaven her eternal home.

1 Timothy 5:8 (King James Version)

[i]8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.[/i]

I see this passage as properly fitting also in the context of marriage/divorce, as it does taking care of the widows. A man, a woman who will abandon their spouse and children will one day close their eyes in death on this earth and they will awaken in the flames of hell. They will be eternally rewarded with what they wanted here on earth. A spouse who wants to separate themselves from their family here, God will one day grant that request for all eternity. And yes, I am well aware of the very limited exceptions that allows for a "putting away".

I am fearful there are entire congregations whereby God is even now saying “I do not accept ANY of this.” “Not your Sunday morning service, not your Sunday night Evangelistic service, nor your midweek service.”

We live in a day when Men can fornicate, commit adultery, divorce and remarry, and then go right on down the road to another Church and be put right back in Ministry with hardly ANY QUESTIONS ASKED!!
Yet………………………………Don’t forget this…
“THE LORD HATH BEEN WITNESS.”


The madness being perpetrated upon Children with new mom, old mom, new dad, old dad, old grandparents, new grandparents, step this, step that… IS WICKED!

And then I hear parents trying to convince me how well-adjusted the kids are to all this. I am not convinced, not now, not yesterday, and I will not be convinced tomorrow. Only thing I am convinced of is, God IS NOT accepting all this.

Sad truth is, to you young Ministers I speak… Don’t expect to be invited to speak at many denominational Churches with a message like this.
SO WHAT, I say.
HPWT= Have Pulpit Will Travel.
Let this be your motto, build yourself a pulpit stash it in the trunk of your car and go Preach!

If one marriage is saved it will be worth it all, irregardless of all the hateful comments and correspondence you will receive.

God Bless,
Tony

p.s.

1 Peter 3:7 (King James Version)

[i]7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.[/i]

I hardly know a Christian man who will sit down with some Godly marriage&relationship literature/books/videos to try and gain some knowledge in thier marriage relationship as to how and dwell with their spouse. Typically some men will tell me the scriptures are what they use, and is all they need for a Godly home. Just remember this men: you are not always physically present with your spouse to “remind” them how great and Godly your home and relationship’s are as they speak with other ladies. Know this, it all comes out then, so don’t be a fool!!


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2005/5/17 0:14Profile





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