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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

I know sometimes with my limited understanding of the Bible, that some folks probably think I've gone off the deep end with some of my responses. My personal response and belief to this thread is, I think the whole Bible is still relevant today, the only thing that has changed in my opinion is we now live under grace and not law. Please don't throw things at me, as I said I have a limited understanding of the Bible, but I do try and learn and remember as much as my limited brain can handle. Matter fact we all have finite minds, so we must not expect with our finite minds to comprehend the infinite God.


_________________
Bill

 2015/12/26 13:30Profile









 Re:

Hi Bill,

We are all in the same boat. No one can understand the revelation of God, the infinite things of God, without the Holy Spirit.

We only comprehend the infinite with God's infinite Spirit.

The Holy Spirit illuminates our minds (gives us understanding) of His Word.

Many highly educated men are spiritually ignorant and many uneducated men are spiritually knowledgeable.

 2015/12/26 13:50









 Brother Frank

you wrote:

"Not sure what we are missing there Alan, perhaps you could explain what you meant, for the simple reading of your words plainly state that " stubborn defiance of authority," was a capital offense, and that somehow this carries forward to the New Covenant. This of course, is simply not true.....bro Frank"

I was thinking the EXACT same thing....does " stubborn defiance of authority," mean that if I don't kiss some man's ring, i'm in " stubborn defiance of authority," ?

reading thru THAT OP, and some of the others, this Bit of Scripture from Jeremiah came into my soul:

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

 2015/12/26 14:31
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re: Brother Frank

The commands to destroy a person found in the Law are predicated upon the situations described by Moses, as directed by Yahweh, where genuine God given authority is being rejected. Yahweh set the conditions and gave the instructions and put safeguards in place to protect the innocent.

In every case where the authority He Himself had established was willfully rejected, His instructions were to put the guilty one to death so as to prevent others from being polluted by the poisonous defiant attitude.

The writer of Hebrews affirmed that principle - "everyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the basis of two or three witnesses."
Defiance of the Law and those acting in true obedience within the Law, was seen by Yahweh as rejection of His Law and defiance of His authority.

So yes, stubborn defiance of God's true authority was a capital offense in the Old Covenant and remains a deadly sin even in the New Covenant.

This thread began as a text message to friends that brother Greg decided to post here on the forum. Unconditional submission to men never even entered my mind. The connection between refusing to be persuaded by the truth and the wrath such an attitude brings is simple enough for most to understand easily.

Is it possible that the real problem is a result from what was "read into" the thread for various reasons. I do not believe refusal to acknowledge unjust authority is defiance, in fact I doubt anyone on this forum has ever believed that. I believe nearly everyone who comes to this forum has a deep appreciation for all who have suffered for refusal to submit to injustice.

It does not appear everyone gives that same benefit of the doubt to their other brothers on this forum. I do not believe this is intentional but very likely due to certain sensitive triggers that are results from previous unresolved issues.

Mak


There were hints of this in the responses that were easily detected


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2015/12/26 20:34Profile









 Re:

The liberty that NT believers have does not give them a license to sin.

Mak,
I think you are right on all points and it might help some if you posted NT verses to illustrate your point.

 2015/12/26 21:24









 Re:

And here was me thinking it was resolved :)

"In every case where the authority He Himself had established was willfully rejected, His instructions were to put the guilty one to death so as to prevent others from being polluted by the poisonous defiant attitude."

Anyone who has read anything of church history will recognize this above statement as problematic. One of the tenets of the Catholic church was the Pope himself was the supreme authority set up by God. This would also have been true in Geneva and in the Puritan settlements.

"So yes, stubborn defiance of God's true authority was a capital offense in the Old Covenant and remains a deadly sin even in the New Covenant."

I am glad to see that it has been downgraded from the original statement from a capital offense to a " deadly sin."

"Is it possible that the real problem is a result from what was "read into" the thread for various reasons. I do not believe refusal to acknowledge unjust authority is defiance."

I think when you change the phrase to " unjust authority," it is again either intentionally or unintentionally vague. Is it possible the real problem is a result of previous actions and words? Very possibly. A man can be measured by his words and his actions.

And the poison pill to end it :) "It does not appear everyone gives that same benefit of the doubt to their other brothers on this forum. I do not believe this is intentional but very likely due to certain sensitive triggers that are results from previous unresolved issues."

I dont believe there are any novices on this thread, everyone knows what they are writing and of course some of us have previous experience of each other. Therefore, I am forced to agree that legalistic statements and issues of control are undoubtedly the results of previous unresolved issues. Some of us may just speak a little more plainly than others :) ...........bro Frank

 2015/12/26 21:42









 Re:

I think this portion of a chapter from Andrew Murray on the "Two Covenants," may be helpful for those who confuse the OC with the NC. I have found that there is great confusion among many Christians, even Christians who have been on the road for a long time, on this subject. While I love the OT, it must be understood in its proper context otherwise much confusion can occur, especially from those of a legalistic bent. At the end of the quote I will include some Scriptures from the NT as Julias requested...........

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.......Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (2Co 3:5-9)

In this wonderful chapter, Paul reminds the Corinthians, in speaking of his ministry among them, of what its chief characteristics were. As ministry of the New Covenant he contrasts it, and the whole dispensation of which it is a part, with that of the Old. The old was graven on stone, the New on the heart. The Old could be written in ink and was distinguished by the letter that kills;the New is distinguished by the Spirit who makes alive. The Old was a ministry of condemnation;the New, of righteousness and life. The Old indeed had its glory, for it was by divine appointment and brought its divine blessing;but it was a glory that was to fade away, and had no glory in comparison to the much greater glory of that which lasts. With the Old there was the veil on the heart;in the New the veil is taken away from the face and the heart, for in it the Spirit of the Lord gives liberty. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed with ever increasing glory into His image, by the Spirit of the Lord. This glory that excels proves its power in this, that it not only characterizes the dispensation on its divine side but also so exerts its power in the heart and life of its subjects that is is seen in them also.

Think a moment about the contrast. The OC functioned as the letter that kills. The law came with its literal instruction and sought by the knowledge it gave of God's will to appeal to man's fear and his love-to his natural powers of mind and conscience and will. It spoke to him as if he could obey, so that it might convince him of what he did not know, the fact that he could not obey. And so it fulfilled its mission; "This commandment", which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me (Rom 7:10) In the New, on the contrary, how different everything is. Instead of the compelling " letter," there is the Spirit who gives life, who breathes the very life of God, the life of heaven into us. Instead of a law graven on stone, the law is written on the heart- worked into the heart's affections and powers, making it one with them. Instead of a vain attempt to work from the outside inward, the Spirit and the law are put into the inward parts to work outward in life and walk. ( Andrew Murray, The Two Covenants)

Can you see where Andrew is coming from? In the old there is the letter that works on the outward man, but could do nothing to work on the heart of a man, at best he could be self-righteous and blinded by pride. It is now the Spirit's work that breathes life into the heart and enables that very heart to walk the narrow path that leads to life as He changes the heart and that changing heart leads to changes in the outer man. Those who are caught up in the letter of the law, vainly attempt to change men by letters and by the law written upon stone. These men love the OT law and I would argue are the same men, heretic hunters and law keepers, who have murdered the saints down through the ages. The ministry of condemnation rules in the hearts of those whose very hearts have not been invaded by the Holy Spirit.........bro Frank

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Joh 3:16-17)

For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. (Gal 4:24-31)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Heb 13:20-21)

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them









 2015/12/27 15:25
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Julius21....The liberty that NT believers have does not give them a license to sin.


Everyone sins, we don't need a license, Adam gave us the license to sin, Jesus paid all of our sin debt past, present and future.


_________________
Bill

 2015/12/27 16:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by MrBillPro on 2015/12/27 16:45:24
Everyone sins, we don't need a license, Adam gave us the license to sin, Jesus paid all of our sin debt past, present and future.



Hi Bill,

I was referring to this verse.

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 2015/12/27 17:07
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

Some very good points being posted. I want to share something I found in Union With Christ by Lewis B. Smedes:

The law appears on the scene as another competitor to Jesus Christ (Gal. 5:4). Paul's fundamental thesis about the law is that its time had come to an end: For Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4). To be under the law is to opt for the "old things" that passed away when everything became new in Christ (II Cor. 5:17). And this state has the same ultimate frustrations and fatality as life "in the flesh."

Paul's attitude toward the law, as his feeling about everything, was deeply prejudiced by his life stance within the new Christian reality. He was not much interested in anything in the abstract; what he wanted to know, as the decisive factor, was the bearing a thing had on life in Christ. This is why he was concerned not only with the “what” of a thing, but with the “how” as well; in the case of the law, what he faulted was not its content, but the function it had within the religious community. For its function settled the question of how it bore on people's relationship to God. Anything—even the holy law of God—that got in the way of grace was judged as a threat to salvation in Christ.

Obviously, Paul's basic attitude toward the law is positive. This is not surprising; the God of Jesus Christ is the God of creation and the covenant and the law. As far as its content is concerned, the law is "holy and just and good" (Rom. 7:12). Who would expect the apostle to believe anything else? Christ is the end of the law in this sense; He is the one person whose life was all the law meant human life to be. What the law is, what the law reveals, what the law demands are unassailable from the vantage point of Jesus Christ.

The content of the law gets unconditional praise. But the use people make of the law is another matter. Here things become more complex. There is an important distinction within the function of the law. We can talk about its legitimate and intended function on the one hand and its illegitimate and distorted function on the other. We can talk about the function that God meant it to have and the function that people invested it with.

Let us take, first, its intended positive function. Was the law ever meant to be a means to save oneself? Paul says that the law itself witnessed to the free gift of grace (Rom. 3:21). The beginnings of the Decalogue proclaim that Israel's identity as the people of the law rested in God's mighty act of redemption from Egypt: "I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt." As such the law was a promise; it functioned as a harbinger, a pointer to the reality of divine grace. This is why David and the congregation could sing of their love for the law. As long as the law functioned as a promise or a witness of better things to come, it had to be accepted as a conditional good; but when the reality came, this function was no longer necessary.

But there is also a useful negative function of the law. The law exposes acts of sin for what they are— rebellion against a living God. The law pins the sinner down, nails him at every corner; it sweeps the whole of life into its net and brands every infraction a culpable act of rebellion (Rom. 7:7-9). As it prohibits immoral and hostile acts, it reveals their true context. At the same time, it shows that everyone living under the law is under a curse; he is condemned (Gal. 3:10). And this is a good and necessary function.

Accepting at full value Paul's positive attitude toward the law, we do an abrupt about-face to hear Paul's indictment of the law. Looked at from within Christ, the law is a bad thing. It is a prison, the dank dungeon of spiritual bondage (Gal. 3:22-23). It is the jailor as well, the man who keeps people in chains (Rom. 7:6). The law is a domineering, restrictive guardian or pedagogue who keeps a child too long from the freedom of the mature (Gal. 3:24). It makes sin the worse (Rom. 7:13) and can even be branded as the power behind sin (I Cor. 15:56). In fact, the law destroys the souls of men (II Cor. 3:6). No wonder Paul says to people who want to find salvation in the law, "You are severed from Christ" (Gal. 5:4). The law is not merely a good thing now outmoded; it is a monster.

In this sense, Christ is the destroyer of the law. He "cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14). His crucifixion of the law was of a piece with his defeat of the "principalities and powers" (Col. 2:15). The law had become a tool of the enemy; one of God's great goods had been stolen by the enemy and used to destroy God's creatures.

The law became a destructive power because of its alliance with the flesh. When the law came, the "flesh" made the law an instrument of self-righteousness. The law became part of a religious system which fostered man's sense of self-sufficiency. It became party to man's monstrous delusion.

This was the Judaistic religious system that Paul recognized as the enemy of Christ. The law had been turned inside out: rather than a witness to man's need of being saved, it had become a technique to save oneself. The inner meaning of the law had been forgotten: the letter alone was left when the spiritual content of love was ignored. This is the character of life outside of Christ. Although Paul has the Judaistic distortions before him, the situation is parallel to every religious system in which man in weakness pretends to be man in strength, in which man in need of grace pretends to be man without need of grace. Paul sees the world outside of Christ as controlled and dominated by this alliance: moral law (or religious law) and flesh. The moral and religious life of all men is bound to and structured by this fatal alliance.

The law teamed with flesh produces sin. And sin ends in death. This is the fatality of the alliance. Flesh plus law equals death because flesh plus law leaves men in sin. This is why Paul talks about "the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).



The points in the above essay that I want to press is that the law was and is good insofar as to its original purpose by God upon His people. The purpose of the law was to:

1) Reveal the awesome, perfect nature of God and the high standards which comprise His character and

2) to show us that we fail to meet God’s standard. The law is inflexible and can only point out our failure to meet its high standards. The law was given about 1500 years before Christ in order to prepare God’s people by showing them their sinfulness, in other words, their need for a Savior. In this way the law was the school master.

The law presents God’s standard as absolute perfection. Failure in just one point is considered failure in all points. God does not grade on the curve when one makes the law the basis of his acceptance by God.

We see the two possible reactions that people had living under the law in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee lowered the standard of the law in his mind in order to claim to have kept it all and was filled with self-righteous pride. Jesus’s harshest criticism and rebuke was directed toward the Pharisees because of their false pride (lack of humility), their hypocrisy, and their harsh judgement of those who don’t measure up to the same level of righteousness that the Pharisee (thinks he has attained). God never said that a person in the Old Testament could obtain right standing (salvation) by keeping the law but the religious leaders assumed that that was exactly what was at stake. They twisted the original purpose of the law in order to stand before God and say, “I kept the law. YOU owe me because I EARNED it by my hard work at keeping all of Your laws.” Absolutely no humility or love in any of that.

The tax collector had the correct reaction to being under the law. It exposed his weakness and failure. He said in humility and despair, “God be merciful to me, the sinner” without raising his eyes toward heaven. God will hear the crushed and humbled. He resists the proud.

If anyone tells you that the law is now the Christians “rule of life” is misguided. It is nowhere found in the NT. That third use of the law was a reaction against antinomianism that occurred shortly after the Reformation when some people thought that since we are saved by faith alone we can live as we please. Christ died not only to forgive us of our sins but to deliver us from the power of sin. Any Christian who thinks it is OK to live in gross sin is very deceived or is not saved. The answer to Christians living in carnality in NOT to reintroduce the law as something binding upon us. We have the Spirit as our guide and power for living. The law of Christ is the law of Love. This is the law we as Christians live under. But even here we do not keep the law of Love in order to obtain salvation or eternal life. Salvation is a free gift of grace. We as Christians keep the law of Love because 1) it is fitting to live a life that respects the almighty Creator God. He deserves that kind of respect and submission and 2) we love the Lord and want to live a life pleasing to Him. And also 3) a life of righteousness and holiness and love is our new nature in Christ. It is fitting and suits us as new creatures in Christ. This is the image we are being conformed to day by day.

 2015/12/27 21:48Profile





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